I don’t like the way this conversation is going, but I do agree with @Adamant1 that it would be helpful to know the current Ukrainian community consensus on whether some mapping activities in Ukraine are now appreciated or if mapping in Ukraine still discouraged, especially since that one Wiki page hasn’t been updated since April last year.
Your the only ones making this about the politics. I know I’m not. Arbitrarily removing Russian names from objects is vandalism pure and simple. The only reason it’s political is because the Ukrainian community is refusing to acknowledge it’s wrong or do anything about it. Like read Andygol’s comment further up in this discussion where he handwaved that was fine because some old lady in Ukrainian got her hand blown off by a Russian. Your the ones who keep bringing up the war and using it as an excuse to not take a position against the names being removed. Your also the ones acting like the war is a justification to not clarify the Wiki article.
This isn’t that difficult though and it has nothing to do with politics. Just say Russian names shouldn’t be arbitrary removed from objects, tell the Ukrainian community not to do it anymore, and clarify what exactly can or can’t be mapped in Ukrainian. That’s all people want. You just can’t do it without making excuses and handwaving about the war for some reason. I can guarantee this conversation would have been over months ago if there wasn’t the obfuscation and censorship though.
Accusation again. Is it so hard for you to communicate without it?
BTW, that woman was not old (~30)
@muchichka_s, Adamants messages are filled with passive aggression. It’s best to ignore them.
That’s literally what AndyGal said. And if your not into accusations, cool. Your the one who accused me of only being involved in this conversation because I dislike Ukrainians. If you can’t take it don’t dish it out. I have zero problem quoting what someone on your side said to prove a point if your going to treat me like I’m just a Ukrainian hater or some nonsense. You respond like that because you know you can’t just take a stance against Russian names being removed from objects though.
Same goes for you Darkonus. This whole thing has been one long exercise in passive aggressiveness on your side, but I still took the time to participate in the conversation and reply to people despite it. Why not show me the same respect and just say people shouldn’t be arbitrary removing Russian names from objects?
@Adamant1 Let me refer to this one specific sentence. I truly hope that you are making a sincere mistake and were not checking other threads. I truly hope that you want to address something, not continue your narrative, which is not politically neutral despite your own statements.
Here is one clear statement that the mass-removal of name:ru is a vandalism, upvoted 10 times: Місце російської мови на об'єктах на території України - #53 by _sev
Here is another similar statement, upvoted 4 times: Місце російської мови на об'єктах на території України - #60 by Myazyk
How come edits removing Russian names from objects in the Ukraine aren’t dealt with months later but any edit done in Ukraine from a Russian
The country is in a state of war. Russia deliberately targeted the energetic infrastructure of Ukraine. Thus, many cities were with a limited supply of electricity. A lot of people were displaced. They had more important stuff to do 6-18 months ago than patrol OSM.
To answer from another perspective: not everything is noticed in time. As I know, DWG had to redact thousands of changeset, but some people made vandalism on OSM their motto. We were fighting with the mass removal of name:ru even just a couple of days ago.
For the avoidance of doubt (and I made this explicit in at least one of the block messages I was responsible for) most of the complaints that the DWG got that led to the first round of blocks here were from within Ukraine (actually mostly from Ukrainian speakers within Ukraine).
Most of what you have said simply does not align with the facts.
I’m sure someone said it somewhere in another discussion that’s not this one. You’d have to agree that’s then people involved in this conversation taking a stance against it when they are specifically asked what their position about it is. Which is what I’m talking about and mainly concerned about. I could really care less if someone randomly commented its bad in another discussion that’s in another language and has nothing to do with this. Especially if people are going to respond by hiding comments and accusing people of just hating Ukrainians instead. Sorry. If that’s the position of the wider Ukrainian community though, cool. There’s no reason people from the community couldn’t have just said so from the begining instead of obsecuating about it. It’s not on me or anyone else that they didn’t though. And I still question if it actually is. One post doesn’t balance out or make up for the ridiculous way Ukrainians have acted about it in this conversation or the fact that the edits removing names have’t been and aren’t being reverted. Get back to me when it’s backed up with some actual action and people who have an issue with it are just accused of hating Ukrainians.
Your comment is inappropriate. Nobody owes you anything including “coming back”. The actual action is mentioned right before your post by @SomeoneElse but you deliberately ignored it. I hope it is not a bad will from your side, but just some kind of a curable bias.
Not generally sure, but If people ask the Ukrainian community a question about something in a public forum like this one there as an assumption that they will receive an answer about it at some point that involves more then handwaving about how the people asking it just Ukrainians. Especially if it involve vandalism. That’s just part of being members of the wider OpenStreetMap community. You can’t just ignore questions from the wider community and allow for Ukrain to be vandalised in the meantime because “mah war” or whatever. Its like it hasn’t been almost a year either. I think everyone, including myself, have been pretty patient about this. I have no issue with coming back to it when your actually willing to clarify things and take a stance against Russian names being removed and that’s all I was saying. I’m not going to just piss off because someone accused me of being racist or some nonsense though. Sorry.
(BTW, I didn’t ignore SomeoneElse’s comment. I just didn’t see it because I’m editing on the phone and its hard to see responses on mobile. Especially when your writting a messages. It has nothing to being bias though, obviously lmao.)
I can’t link to it right now because I’m editing on mobile but there’s a couple of edits from months (if not years) ago remocing Russian names from objects where user making the edits specifically said they doing to “derussiafy” Ukrain or whatever. Its been at a few months since I looked but no one from the Ukrainian community had said anything about it or reverted the edits at the time. I’m pretty sure I brought them up in this conversation to and my comment was ignored. You can argue maybe they just missed the edits and my comments, but then pro-Russian edits are almost always immediately condemned and reverted on site. So I find it hard to believe that’s what happened. Especially since like I’ve said I specifically brought it up and lnked to it in this conversation and no one had done anything about it days or months later when I looked. Let alone did I ever say explicitly (or otherwise) say the edit was wrong and that people shouldn’t be removing Russian names from objects.
Mapping in Ukraine is not forbidden. That Wiki page represent the opinion of the user who wrote it, not anything official and not the majority of OpenStreetMap.
Also, any war has 2 sides. It is not “the good” vs “the bad” like a cartoon.
@SomeoneElse Here is at least one of the links I was talking about. You can see from that conversation that the person said “every Saturday and Wednesday I will regularly delete name ru in Western Ukraine.” No one from the Ukrainian community called it out at the time or even acknowledged it here when I linked to it here originally. Let alone was it reverted at the time. Although a user who appears to be from Russia or a neighboring country did eventually revert it a month later.
Apparently the name on the roads has gone back and forth since then. Including this changeset where the user made this gem of a comment in the process “Ukraine don’t needs language of russian rapists of children and womens.” Again, the edit was reverted by someone who doesn’t appear to be from Ukraine a few days later but without anyone from Ukrainian specifically condemning the edit or the user calling Russian’s child rapists. You can look through that users edit history to see that all their changeset comments have the same line and “in Ukraine all names must be in Ukrainian language.”
The user hasn’t been blocked and the only person who has said anything to them or reverted their edits is @Grass-snake. Someone who again isn’t from the Ukrainian community and is being accused of acting divisively by people in this discussion who are. It’s apparently perfectly fine to say Russian’s rape children and that all names in Ukraine should be in Russian. But it’s divisive to ask the a question or point out that a message was hidden when it shouldn’t have been
As a side to that if you look through Anti1982’s edit history (the guy who made the “removing Russian names from Ukraine every Saturday and Wednesday” comment) they are now doing mass semi-automated edits to “decolonize” Ukraine. Whatever that means. Regardless, no one from the Ukrainian community has said jack about it from what I can tell and the user hasn’t been blocked. Nor have their edits been reverted. So the idea that this isn’t one sided or that the Ukrainian community isn’t cherry picking is just laughable. Compare all that to “pro-Russian” edits and again there’s clearly a double standard.
Here’s another gem BTW. The comment on all their changesets is “Civilized world dont needs language of russian rapists of children and womens.” Where’s the outrage by the Ukrainian community and why did it take multiple weeks for someone from New York to revert the edits they made in Ukraine when “pro-Russian” edits done there are condemned and reverted on site?
I believe that the vandal was blocked and the changes reverted.
True, but it doesn’t negate the fact that their edits in Ukraine were reverted by non-Ukrainians and no one from the community ever said or did anything about it. At least not from what I can tell.
without anyone from Ukrainian?
“From Ukraine”, obviously. Chalk it up to writing the message on my phone. I wouldn’t worry to much about the exact wording of specific messages in the conversation, no matter who they are written by. Otherwise, your just going to miss the forest for the trees. Anyway, I don’t think dfn5h54563 and the user I was talking about the same person. So I’m not really sure what your point in bringing them up is, but cool that a few people spoke out about a user I wasn’t talking about in another conversation while refusing to take a position on it in this one.
As I’ve said, I don’t really care if someone in another discussion mentions something that has nothing to do with this discussion. If they are actually against the behavior there’s no reason they can’t or couldn’t have just said so in here when people outside of Ukraine were (and still are) asking them about it. Maybe it’s just me, but that seems like an easy win. To the point that I don’t really get why it’s taken almost a year for them to just condone it despite multiple asking them to. Hell, I’ve asked multiple Ukrainian users to condone the behavior just today and none of them have. I just got attacked for asking them to. So you’ll have to forgive me if I don’t really find the conversations you linked to as evidence of anything
Follow your own link - it’s the same user you were talking about.
Coincidentally a bull’s eye, this was just one of 7000 sockpuppets, dozens of whom have engaged in massive vandalism, destroying data in countless mass edits around the world. It wasn’t just the DWG that was busy with this for days. But you don’t seem to have noticed.
where’s the button?
(Also this post “was flagged as inappropriate: the community feels it is offensive, abusive, to be hateful conduct or a violation of our community guidelines”. It would be nice if the hatefully offended and abused community would come out of the hiding place where they can flag posts they dislike and tell us what precisely is inappropriate in wishing to thumbs-down a post.)