“Rules thee but not for me.” Or to put it another way, edits in the area of Ukraine (political or otherwise) are apparently totally fine as long as they are being done for the benefit of Ukrainians. To quote a Ukrainian mapper from a changeset comment “it is not possible to change names from Ukrainian to Russian on the territory of Ukraine.” That clearly doesn’t go the other way since Ukrainians are apparently fine with politically motivated edits to derussify their country and areas around it since those types of edits clearly benefit them
How dare anyone do something like map a playground in an area of Ukraine that isn’t even involved in the war though. Clearly it’s a political motivated edit that should be reverted and the person who did it should be reported to the DWG!!!
The two of you should draft and propose new mapping guidelines for disputed territories together. I know you’re not the only people who feel this way, so this could actually be interesting.
It’s an idea. I don’t see the point in us doing that if the mapping guidelines are just going to be ignored or only applied in certain instances but not others though. At the end of the day the current guidelines should just be enforced in a way that isn’t bias toward one side of the equation. There’s no reason you and people who live in Ukraine can’t moderate edits that are committing derussification just like you do ones that favor Ukrainians. It’s not my job to draft or propose mapping guidelines just so you and Ukrainian mappers will stop acting like one sided partisans who will handwave anything done by a Ukrainian no matter what the edit is or where it’s being done, but then will cry foul the second anyone else makes an edit even slightly related to the country. Just take the same stance with derussification that you do with other edits instead of picking and choosing. It’s not that difficult.
Sometimes it can actually be that difficult, and for those cases being able to refer to a documented guideline that many mappers can agree with can be an invaluable tool to improve communication and collaboration within the OSM community.
Sure, but the question is if it’s that difficult in this situation and I don’t think it is since there’s already multiple guidelines and a request not to map in the Ukraine that make it clear why people shouldn’t be arbitrarily removing Russian names from objects. Why would I bother wasting my time creating yet another “guideline” on top of the 4 or 5 that already exist just to further clarify something that you and Ukrainian mappers already know but are intentionally choosing to ignore because it doesn’t benefit you to stop Ukrainian users removing Russian from objects like it does to opportunistically cry foul about people making biennial edits to places that aren’t even involved in the war.
This can be interpreted as “don’t move borders along fast-changing frontlines in realtime”, which could be a good starting point for a guideline, but a more holistic approach seems necessary as edit wars, acts of vandalism and “disaster mapping” happen across a broad range of map features, well beyond the military space.
The current guidelines also lack sufficient recommendations regarding mapping in occupied territories. Clearing that up and getting more mappers to agree to something on that topic can make a huge difference in how we collaborate.
So, if OSM had existed during WW2, we would have mapped all of Europe, from France into the USSR, & Norway down to Greece & North Africa as Germany, because the “local authorities” use German; as well as East Asia as Japan?
Not that I think your comment is anything other then a strawman, but at least with Germany occupying North Africa it was only for a year. What’s it been like 10 years that Crimea has been annexed from the Ukraine? So they clearly aren’t comparably. Probably a more relevant comparison would be the Belgian states occupation of the Congo. Although that was like 50 years, but it will probably still be another 10 or 20 years before Crimea is a part of Ukraine again if it ever happens. Or for that matter, French Algeria, which lasted for like 20 years. In those case it probably would have been perfectly reasonable to change the language of objects in the Congo to Belgian and in Algeria to French. Especially if we were actually striving for a politically neutral map.
That doesn’t even address the fact that Russian was already being spoken by most of the population in Crimea prior to the annexation either. 35% of the population in Ukraine speak Russian as it is. So there’s zero legitimate reason not to use the Russian language on objects there regardless. More so if the names of said objects was already in Russian prior to the war and haven’t been officially changed since then. Otherwise it’s kind of like someone in the United States changing the names of localities that are in Spanish to English if the country was invaded by Spain, which I’m sure you’d agree would be totally ridiculous. Or would it be totally fine for say an American to change the names of places like San Diego to Saint Diego or Los Angeles to The Angels “because war”?
I agree, my posts were also hidden (including in other topics) due to the fact that they seemed inappropriate to someone. Of course, there was nothing in them that caused feels it is offensive, abusive, to be hateful conductor a violation, I just stated my position. At the same time on the forum it seems that the community has come to a unanimous decision, although this is not the case.
Please, do not bring division where it is not present. The Ukrainian community, in its vast majority is pretty aligned, and together we were fighting against vandalism on the map. And no, vandals are not tolerated in OSM, regardless of their reasoning and justifications for why they’re bringing the damage.
How come edits removing Russian names from objects in the Ukraine aren’t dealt with months later but any edit done in Ukraine from a Russian or someone who’s doing edits that seem to be pro-Russian are immediately condemned and dealt with? Both are vandalism, but they are clearly treated differently by the Ukrainian community.
What is it almost a year later since this thread was started and I still have yet to see any Ukrainian user say here or anywhere else that people shouldn’t be removing Russian names from objects. To the degree that’s been any division around the topic in the meantime it’s 100% due to the inconsistency and unwillingness to clarify things or take an actual stance about it one way or another. Which isn’t on users like Grass-snake. This conversation would have been over after the first couple of posts if you (as in the Ukrainian community) hadn’t of spent a year either ignoring this or deflecting questions instead clarifying things.
What’s the quote say when you create an account, “focus on the content of the message. Not the person who wrote it”? I’d be interested to know how your doing that by trying to make this about me and my motivations for participating in this discussion. Regardless this has nothing to do with me or anyone else hating Ukrainians and it’s extremely insulting that your trying to make it about that instead of just addressing the issue. If the Ukrainian community really cares about not being divisive and dealing with the issue then cool. Comments like yours really aren’t doing them favors though. If nothing else your comment just makes it look like the Ukrainian community could really care less and rather just perpetually play the victim instead of actually dealing with the vandalism or clarifying things.
Same goes for repeatedly hiding comments that slightly disagree with your narrative BTW. This isn’t going to magically go away by crying foul about how people in this conversation just don’t like Ukrainians and/or hiding comments you don’t like. It’s pretty clear that Ukrainians could care less about actually dealing with or the vandalism of objects with Russian names going on though.
Just imagine that the lives of Ukrainians are currently under a lot of pressure, and the hours that I spend on mapping, I try to take a break from everything and not think about politics or anything else. But someone always wants to spoil it
BTW You are not my boss to give advice in such format
I don’t like the way this conversation is going, but I do agree with @Adamant1 that it would be helpful to know the current Ukrainian community consensus on whether some mapping activities in Ukraine are now appreciated or if mapping in Ukraine still discouraged, especially since that one Wiki page hasn’t been updated since April last year.
Your the only ones making this about the politics. I know I’m not. Arbitrarily removing Russian names from objects is vandalism pure and simple. The only reason it’s political is because the Ukrainian community is refusing to acknowledge it’s wrong or do anything about it. Like read Andygol’s comment further up in this discussion where he handwaved that was fine because some old lady in Ukrainian got her hand blown off by a Russian. Your the ones who keep bringing up the war and using it as an excuse to not take a position against the names being removed. Your also the ones acting like the war is a justification to not clarify the Wiki article.
This isn’t that difficult though and it has nothing to do with politics. Just say Russian names shouldn’t be arbitrary removed from objects, tell the Ukrainian community not to do it anymore, and clarify what exactly can or can’t be mapped in Ukrainian. That’s all people want. You just can’t do it without making excuses and handwaving about the war for some reason. I can guarantee this conversation would have been over months ago if there wasn’t the obfuscation and censorship though.
That’s literally what AndyGal said. And if your not into accusations, cool. Your the one who accused me of only being involved in this conversation because I dislike Ukrainians. If you can’t take it don’t dish it out. I have zero problem quoting what someone on your side said to prove a point if your going to treat me like I’m just a Ukrainian hater or some nonsense. You respond like that because you know you can’t just take a stance against Russian names being removed from objects though.
Same goes for you Darkonus. This whole thing has been one long exercise in passive aggressiveness on your side, but I still took the time to participate in the conversation and reply to people despite it. Why not show me the same respect and just say people shouldn’t be arbitrary removing Russian names from objects?
