OK, _sev. I don’t see how I’m not listening, trolling, or being sarcastic when I directly quoted you and cited actual examples to back up what I said. But sure, quoting your own words and changeset comments is “sarcasm and trolling.” Whatever you say.
I don’t think I said anything in my comment that was cursing. I know I didn’t mean to swear. So maybe I just miss spelled something. It is 2am Afterall. If your willing to point out what exactly I said that you think is cursing I’d be more then happy to fix it. Although you throwing around accusations and nitpicking over wording in the meantime isn’t that great of a way to treat someone either
Maybe it’s just me, but it’s rather low to on the one hand claim someone else is trolling, not listening, and being sarcastic while putting words in the person’s mouth in the next message. I never said the Ukrainian community was a failure or lying and I don’t really appreciate you acting like I did. It’s pretty clear your resorting to ad hominem comments because you can’t just address my message on the actual merits of what I said though.
Unfortunately, the majority of posts in this thread are from non-Ukrainians, and the tone of the discussion, thanks to some participants, is negative. From my subjective point of view, we are mostly being lectured and judged in this thread.
I am in favor of such wording, with only minor changes. But I think we shouldn’t rush to add it to the wiki without a broader discussion among Ukrainian participants who don’t speak English. I am writing here myself through an automatic translator.
None of the Ukrainian participants in this thread could have prevented the activities of automated bots even if they wanted to, without the intervention of DWG. The more participants with different competencies would participate in the “war of edits”, the more chaos would be in the data. I have no experience in rolling back changes affecting thousands and thousands of objects. And while someone’s automatic bot is working, it makes no sense at all. Only after the bot is blocked does it make sense to roll back its changes.
That is understandable. Is it possible for Ukrainians mappers to discuss this topic among themselves and to share an updated mapping guideline for Ukraine with the international OSM community?
Realistically the street name situation is much more nuanced than “we must remove all name:ru!” or “we must prevent the removal of any name:ru!”. There are changes to names mandated by local authorities and discussed in detail in other threads and forums. A number of the name:ru were added as “translations” and apparently were never verifiable. I’m sure there are also verifiable name:ru too.
I can fully understand why the local community chose not to interact in detail with the stream of 30-odd sockpuppets that removed name:ru locally and globally. Once the pattern had been established it was clear that these sockpuppets were not being operated in good faith. My initial block messages were simply “vandal account” (since edited) because there wasn’t time to write more before moving on to the next one.
Not true; see my comment above.
Also false. Just because the people reporting and dealing with the problem didn’t update you personally with every stage of the process didn’t mean that these changesets were “ignored”.
You clearly believe that you are right. A number of people here are saying that you are not. This can only mean that one of the following is true:
You are correct and everyone else is wrong
You are wrong but believe you are right because you aren’t able to process the information that is being presented to you.
You know you’re wrong but just like to argue with people.
Just to be clear, I don’t really have an issue with the street name thing, how it was handled, and I don’t think I’ve said anything about it either. Most of the edits I saw where the Russian language was removed had to do with buildings and POIs. I think _sev was the one who brought roads into the conservation though.
I don’t expect anyone, Ukrainian or otherwise, to interact in detail with 30-odd sockpuppets. I know I never said anyone should deal with them. Obviously that’s on the DWG to resolve. As far as I know the changesets and users that were brought up a few months ago weren’t sockpuppets though. Individual users removing Russian names from the map because “civilized world dont needs language of russian rapists of children and womens” or whatever is clearly within the Ukrainian communities peer view. Otherwise they should update the Wiki article to make it clear they aren’t the ones dealing with the issue
And see my comment above where I provided evidence that they don’t. We can go back and forth cherry picking examples all day. Like I’ve said though, I’m sure they deal with anti-Russian edits. It’s just not to the same degree that they deal with pro-Russian ones. I assume you get the difference.
I never said the changesets were ignored because I wasn’t personally consulted about them. They were ignored because no one had commented on or reverted them months later. Again, I’m sure you get the difference. Nowhere have I said anyone should have consulted me about anything or that the changesets were ignored because I wasn’t involved in dealing with them.
This isn’t really about right or wrong. It can both true that the Ukrainian community deals with anti-Russian edits but that they don’t do it to an adequate enough degree and have ignored peoples concerns about it in the process. The same goes for them not clarifying the Wiki article. It’s just a fact that the article hasn’t been updated to clarify things. That fact has nothing to do with me being “right” or “wrong” about anything. It just is. As a side to that the repeated gaslighting and false accusations every time you respond to me in every discussion is getting rather tiring. So I’d appreciate it if you found someone else to badger. I have better things to with my time then spend it repeatedly countering your dishonest comments.
For the avoidance of doubt, that changeset comment was never used by “individual users”. It corresponds exactly with one series of sockpuppets. I know, because I was the one blocking them as they started editing.
Maybe “that” changeset wasn’t done by individual users but multiple changesets and users have been brought up in this conversation and some of them were. Their changeset comments weren’t that different from the one I quoted either.
Please stop arguing with this troll who keeps sowing discord to bait other users into sending frustrated replies. It’s counterproductive to the discussion.
To be honest, part of my reason for doing so was to demonstrate why any attempt at more nuance or more documentation on https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Russian–Ukrainian_war is unlikely to succeed. People in Ukraine have enough to deal with at home, without having to argue with idiots on the internet as well.
Edit: Apparently I need to clarify that last sentence, since a couple of people thought that “idiots” was referring to them personally. It wasn’t - it was aimed at literally everyone in this thread who is not in Ukraine, including me.
I flagged a couple of people’s messages including yours that involved insults and false accusations about me. I don’t think it was all of them though, but even it was it’s not like other people’s posts (including mine) haven’t been flagged for way less then the things you said about me Weren’t you the one who said @grass-snake was being divisive when they pointed out their post was flagged for no reason anyway? And here you are crying foul over me flagging your post because you accused me of trolling The amount of hypocrisy and cry bullying in this conversation is unreal.
This post has been locked as it went into unconstructive attacks and sometimes mocking.
The outlined approaches to the problem, as mentioned in Russian–Ukrainian war - #151 by Friendly_Ghost will be eventually reflected on the Wiki, but we will need to hammer them out with the Ukrainian community. I will copy/paste these into a new discussion topic since, for example, @darkonus mentioned that he has some suggestions for better wording.
In the meantime, based on performance in this thread, as well as other spaces and discussions, and after discussion between UA moderators as well as the global moderators and the governance team, user Adamant1 was blocked for a year.
The amount of hypocrisy and cry bullying in this conversation is unreal.