Sure, but the question is if it’s that difficult in this situation and I don’t think it is since there’s already multiple guidelines and a request not to map in the Ukraine that make it clear why people shouldn’t be arbitrarily removing Russian names from objects. Why would I bother wasting my time creating yet another “guideline” on top of the 4 or 5 that already exist just to further clarify something that you and Ukrainian mappers already know but are intentionally choosing to ignore because it doesn’t benefit you to stop Ukrainian users removing Russian from objects like it does to opportunistically cry foul about people making biennial edits to places that aren’t even involved in the war.
I’m happy to see that we all agree on this.
This can be interpreted as “don’t move borders along fast-changing frontlines in realtime”, which could be a good starting point for a guideline, but a more holistic approach seems necessary as edit wars, acts of vandalism and “disaster mapping” happen across a broad range of map features, well beyond the military space.
The current guidelines also lack sufficient recommendations regarding mapping in occupied territories. Clearing that up and getting more mappers to agree to something on that topic can make a huge difference in how we collaborate.
If you think that suffices as a community mapping guideline you haven’t kept a close eye on the edits that take place in & around eastern Ukraine.
So, if OSM had existed during WW2, we would have mapped all of Europe, from France into the USSR, & Norway down to Greece & North Africa as Germany, because the “local authorities” use German; as well as East Asia as Japan? 
1 Like
Not that I think your comment is anything other then a strawman, but at least with Germany occupying North Africa it was only for a year. What’s it been like 10 years that Crimea has been annexed from the Ukraine? So they clearly aren’t comparably. Probably a more relevant comparison would be the Belgian states occupation of the Congo. Although that was like 50 years, but it will probably still be another 10 or 20 years before Crimea is a part of Ukraine again if it ever happens. Or for that matter, French Algeria, which lasted for like 20 years. In those case it probably would have been perfectly reasonable to change the language of objects in the Congo to Belgian and in Algeria to French. Especially if we were actually striving for a politically neutral map.
That doesn’t even address the fact that Russian was already being spoken by most of the population in Crimea prior to the annexation either. 35% of the population in Ukraine speak Russian as it is. So there’s zero legitimate reason not to use the Russian language on objects there regardless. More so if the names of said objects was already in Russian prior to the war and haven’t been officially changed since then. Otherwise it’s kind of like someone in the United States changing the names of localities that are in Spanish to English if the country was invaded by Spain, which I’m sure you’d agree would be totally ridiculous. Or would it be totally fine for say an American to change the names of places like San Diego to Saint Diego or Los Angeles to The Angels “because war”?
I agree, my posts were also hidden (including in other topics) due to the fact that they seemed inappropriate to someone. Of course, there was nothing in them that caused feels it is offensive, abusive, to be hateful conductor a violation, I just stated my position. At the same time on the forum it seems that the community has come to a unanimous decision, although this is not the case.
Please, do not bring division where it is not present. The Ukrainian community, in its vast majority is pretty aligned, and together we were fighting against vandalism on the map. And no, vandals are not tolerated in OSM, regardless of their reasoning and justifications for why they’re bringing the damage.
7 Likes
How come edits removing Russian names from objects in the Ukraine aren’t dealt with months later but any edit done in Ukraine from a Russian or someone who’s doing edits that seem to be pro-Russian are immediately condemned and dealt with? Both are vandalism, but they are clearly treated differently by the Ukrainian community.
What is it almost a year later since this thread was started and I still have yet to see any Ukrainian user say here or anywhere else that people shouldn’t be removing Russian names from objects. To the degree that’s been any division around the topic in the meantime it’s 100% due to the inconsistency and unwillingness to clarify things or take an actual stance about it one way or another. Which isn’t on users like Grass-snake. This conversation would have been over after the first couple of posts if you (as in the Ukrainian community) hadn’t of spent a year either ignoring this or deflecting questions instead clarifying things.
2 Likes
I don’t understand that. Since you don’t like us so much, you always try to blame us for something. Why don’t you just let go of us?
When I don’t like someone, I try not to deal with them. On the contrary, you want to prove something. Is it necessary for someone other than your Ego?
It seems unfair to me that just because I am Ukrainian I have to see all these accusations against us every day
1 Like
What’s the quote say when you create an account, “focus on the content of the message. Not the person who wrote it”? I’d be interested to know how your doing that by trying to make this about me and my motivations for participating in this discussion. Regardless this has nothing to do with me or anyone else hating Ukrainians and it’s extremely insulting that your trying to make it about that instead of just addressing the issue. If the Ukrainian community really cares about not being divisive and dealing with the issue then cool. Comments like yours really aren’t doing them favors though. If nothing else your comment just makes it look like the Ukrainian community could really care less and rather just perpetually play the victim instead of actually dealing with the vandalism or clarifying things.
Same goes for repeatedly hiding comments that slightly disagree with your narrative BTW. This isn’t going to magically go away by crying foul about how people in this conversation just don’t like Ukrainians and/or hiding comments you don’t like. It’s pretty clear that Ukrainians could care less about actually dealing with or the vandalism of objects with Russian names going on though.
1 Like
Just imagine that the lives of Ukrainians are currently under a lot of pressure, and the hours that I spend on mapping, I try to take a break from everything and not think about politics or anything else. But someone always wants to spoil it
BTW You are not my boss to give advice in such format
1 Like
I don’t like the way this conversation is going, but I do agree with @Adamant1 that it would be helpful to know the current Ukrainian community consensus on whether some mapping activities in Ukraine are now appreciated or if mapping in Ukraine still discouraged, especially since that one Wiki page hasn’t been updated since April last year.
2 Likes
Your the only ones making this about the politics. I know I’m not. Arbitrarily removing Russian names from objects is vandalism pure and simple. The only reason it’s political is because the Ukrainian community is refusing to acknowledge it’s wrong or do anything about it. Like read Andygol’s comment further up in this discussion where he handwaved that was fine because some old lady in Ukrainian got her hand blown off by a Russian. Your the ones who keep bringing up the war and using it as an excuse to not take a position against the names being removed. Your also the ones acting like the war is a justification to not clarify the Wiki article.
This isn’t that difficult though and it has nothing to do with politics. Just say Russian names shouldn’t be arbitrary removed from objects, tell the Ukrainian community not to do it anymore, and clarify what exactly can or can’t be mapped in Ukrainian. That’s all people want. You just can’t do it without making excuses and handwaving about the war for some reason. I can guarantee this conversation would have been over months ago if there wasn’t the obfuscation and censorship though.
2 Likes
Accusation again. Is it so hard for you to communicate without it?
BTW, that woman was not old (~30)
@muchichka_s, Adamants messages are filled with passive aggression. It’s best to ignore them.
2 Likes
That’s literally what AndyGal said. And if your not into accusations, cool. Your the one who accused me of only being involved in this conversation because I dislike Ukrainians. If you can’t take it don’t dish it out. I have zero problem quoting what someone on your side said to prove a point if your going to treat me like I’m just a Ukrainian hater or some nonsense. You respond like that because you know you can’t just take a stance against Russian names being removed from objects though.
Same goes for you Darkonus. This whole thing has been one long exercise in passive aggressiveness on your side, but I still took the time to participate in the conversation and reply to people despite it. Why not show me the same respect and just say people shouldn’t be arbitrary removing Russian names from objects?
1 Like
@Adamant1 Let me refer to this one specific sentence. I truly hope that you are making a sincere mistake and were not checking other threads. I truly hope that you want to address something, not continue your narrative, which is not politically neutral despite your own statements.
Here is one clear statement that the mass-removal of name:ru is a vandalism, upvoted 10 times: Місце російської мови на об'єктах на території України - #53 by _sev
Here is another similar statement, upvoted 4 times: Місце російської мови на об'єктах на території України - #60 by Myazyk
How come edits removing Russian names from objects in the Ukraine aren’t dealt with months later but any edit done in Ukraine from a Russian
The country is in a state of war. Russia deliberately targeted the energetic infrastructure of Ukraine. Thus, many cities were with a limited supply of electricity. A lot of people were displaced. They had more important stuff to do 6-18 months ago than patrol OSM.
To answer from another perspective: not everything is noticed in time. As I know, DWG had to redact thousands of changeset, but some people made vandalism on OSM their motto. We were fighting with the mass removal of name:ru even just a couple of days ago.
4 Likes
For the avoidance of doubt (and I made this explicit in at least one of the block messages I was responsible for) most of the complaints that the DWG got that led to the first round of blocks here were from within Ukraine (actually mostly from Ukrainian speakers within Ukraine).
Most of what you have said simply does not align with the facts.
4 Likes
I’m sure someone said it somewhere in another discussion that’s not this one. You’d have to agree that’s then people involved in this conversation taking a stance against it when they are specifically asked what their position about it is. Which is what I’m talking about and mainly concerned about. I could really care less if someone randomly commented its bad in another discussion that’s in another language and has nothing to do with this. Especially if people are going to respond by hiding comments and accusing people of just hating Ukrainians instead. Sorry. If that’s the position of the wider Ukrainian community though, cool. There’s no reason people from the community couldn’t have just said so from the begining instead of obsecuating about it. It’s not on me or anyone else that they didn’t though. And I still question if it actually is. One post doesn’t balance out or make up for the ridiculous way Ukrainians have acted about it in this conversation or the fact that the edits removing names have’t been and aren’t being reverted. Get back to me when it’s backed up with some actual action and people who have an issue with it are just accused of hating Ukrainians.
Your comment is inappropriate. Nobody owes you anything including “coming back”. The actual action is mentioned right before your post by @SomeoneElse but you deliberately ignored it. I hope it is not a bad will from your side, but just some kind of a curable bias.
4 Likes