So, we’ve been working on this proposal since, well, several years now. It’s pretty simple. There are a lot of features and a lot of potential new ones that need this keytag combo. I even believe that some people don’t even map these shops because of the hassle that brings trying to figure out the right way to do it.
I’m sorry, but this proposal process is kind of challenging for me, since English is not my mother tongue and there are too many steps involving the proposal. Furthermore, I don’t know how to use wiki pages nor mailing lists, but the process has been on hold for too long now. If you can help me to get this RFC to the mailing list, please, cross post this announcement on the tagging mailing list on my behalf by sending an email to: tagging@openstreetmap.org
I am really impressed by the work you put into this proposal. As the issue is a single tag here and not a tagging scheme I would just have started to use this tag in your community and, as soon as some hundred shops were tagged, create a wiki page for it with status “in use”. But for sure going through the proposal process will give you a better backing. You surely have my vote …
Overall, I agree that tortillerias need a separate tag to identify them as they are so common as stand alone places. I think this by itself is probably sufficient to justify the creation of a new tag (and as @Map_HeRo states, start using it). I think the proposal makes a few generalizations about the layout and function bakeries that are unnecessary and don’t hold up and should probably be removed.
For example:“Exhibition of the product to the public as in bakeries is not common practice” Many bakeries don’t exhibit their goods (except in the bins where they are stored).
It is easy to argue that tortillerias are a subset of bakery, but I think that their distinctiveness and commonness obviates the need for being a subtype of bakery in the OSM tagging scheme. The only argument for this, is that until they get recognized as a widely used tag, using the shop=tortilla tag will result in the places only getting rendered as a basic shop.
I agree that panaderías and tortillerías should not share the same tag, and that they’re common enough across enough of the world to need a dedicated tag. I also appreciate the mention of areas outside of Latin America. In my city in California, I know of some taquerías that call themselves tortillerías, and a few real tortillerías, but none of them are standalone shops. Most are located within Mexican supermarkets: the supermarket has a tortillería department next to the panadería department. Meanwhile, this tortilla vendor is a food truck in the parking lot of a hamburger restaurant:
One downside is that data consumers and those writing Overpass queries may not remember a shop=tortilla when searching for food shops in general. We’re probably missing dedicated tags for many other kinds of food that are sold by dedicated vendors. For example, I’ve been mapping Middle Eastern pita shops as shop=bakery. There are also a variety of Vietnamese foods that aren’t baked but come out of a press that looks similar to a tortilladora. I’ve been mapping those shops as shop=pastry, even though they aren’t baked and aren’t really eaten like pastries. I had been shying away from shop=food because it seemed like a tag for shops that sell a variety of foods. But if it’s actually for shops that sell a specific miscellaneous food, then maybe that’s a way to handle foods that are less widespread than tortillas.
In the proposal’s related links, there are a couple of discussions that may be useful to you. This issue came up. The thing is, while a hierarchical approach (shop=food and food=tortilla, pasta, pita, etc.) may be better, the shop=* approach is absolutely prevalent in OSM. We could try to organize our communities and change the way OSM is mapping these shops, try to bring some order, but shop=bakery and others very used keytags will be very hard to bring to our comprehensive proposed hierarchical system.
It’s hard enough to try to push this proposal for me alone, but I’m saying we could try to extend the key food=* to all these shops that sell food in any presentation and not only prepared meals. We could extend the definition of prepared meals to something wider than “not ready for eating immediately (and requiring for example heating/boiling or other simple preparation)”.
The key prefix food:* may be relevant, too. The only issue I can see with this proposal is how prevalent are bakeries, pastries, greengrocers, etc. as food shops. We can still try and make this system compete within OSM.
Yes, to be clear, I agree with shop=tortilla, because tortillerías are so widespread and coexists with bakeries everywhere they exist. shop=food and food:*=* might be useful for the other kinds of shops that are maybe less common or more local.
By the way, shop=bakery has an interesting history. It was originally used for any kind of bakeshop, including pastry shops. But later, shop=pastry was introduced for pastry shops, so some consider shop=bakery to be strictly for shops that bake and sell bread. Unfortunately, most of the bakeshops I’ve encountered fall somewhere in between, since most pastries use the same equipment. Only doughnut shops are really distinct from bakeries, since their fryers cannot produce bread, but they still call themselves bakeries. Meanwhile, the panadería down the street from me mostly sells pan dulce – bread or pastry?
Great proposal, I definitely support this tag! Just the other day I was adding POIs in Los Angeles, CA, USA and came across some tortillerias, wasn’t obvious to me how to tag them. This would solve that!
A minor note, in the proposed entry in the shop= table, it looks like you include an icon that you’ve made. But I believe the actual table only includes icons rendered in OSM-Carto (aka the “Standard Layer”). Adding an icon to Carto is a separate process from having a proposal approved on the wiki, and otherwise there are many other renderers of OSM data. So I suggest removing the icon from the table and instead including it as a “possible rendering” further down. I only say this to head off a preventable reason for someone to vote against your proposal later!
I thought about this and I don’t think I will remove those parts. While it could be easy for you to argue that tortillerias are a type of bakery, the problem is that local mappers do not agree and we will never be able to establish it, as the concept of tortilleria as a bakery will probably always be strange for new mappers, assuming experienced ones will ever accept it. That’s why tortillerias are so differently tagged right now. For tortillas, to be a type of bread, that can fly, but tortillerías being a type of bakery can’t work, because bakeries sell baked bread, and tortillas wouldn’t need an oven to be produced, instead they use a specialized machine.
The other issue is the asymmetry in the English translation. We will forever read “Panadería tortillería Foo” or “Tortillería Foo” classified with real bakeries, but all the bread people will find is unbaked.
