Overture data derived from data licensed under ODbL (such as OpenStreetMap data) will be licensed under ODbL to the extent the license requires it. All other data will be licensed under the Community Database License Agreement ā Permissive v2 (CDLA).
I see that most of the members of this thread are strongly opposed to the Overture Map Foundation. I believe that this refusal to cooperate does not contribute to the further development of the relationship between OSMF and OMF. Establishing a mutually beneficial relationship is the task on which all the efforts of the OSMF Board are now directed, and the task of the entire OSM community is to support the Board.
I mainly sense surprise and frustration due to a lack of information. I also feel uncertainty and cautious curiosity about how this will affect OSMās future. From a distance, both organizations are interested in cooperation, but the boundaries and the new status quo have not yet been clarified. The creation of OvertureMaps is already a result of old conflicts with the OSM community, and these conflicts need to be resolved quickly while building new trust. Both organizations need to make gestures for this. The next year will be critical in this regard.
Another quick update from the board: we have received a notice from the Overture Steering Committee that they need more time to consult with their lawyers but will have a fixed version soon. We have made it clear that the matter is urgent and pointed out the simple solution of removing the download site. We are also looking into more formal way to make our point of view clear.
As previously said, we are open to engaging and collaborating with Overture. The board has approached OMF to that end in the past and we hope to set up regular exchanges in the future. However, every relationship needs to be based on mutual respect. And respect for the license that the OSM community has chosen for their data is part of this.
Definitely, one of the reasons for creating Overture is that people from companies could not win with spontaneous vote from the OpenStreetMap community to be elected on the OSMF Board. Remember that.
Another well-known issue is that OSMF traditionally does not seem to take seriously the use of companies (at least on an individual level, not a set of companies competing with OSMF) that violate the license, even when they hide that the data comes from OpenStreetMap.
Therefore, the creation of the Overture Foundation with the intention of hiding who OpenStreetMap Foundation is is a logical step if OSMF acts as expected. And I would would say they are not just testing the data, but OSMF reaction before they go public.
Generally, Overture data is licensed under the Community Database License Agreement ā Permissive v2 (CDLA) unless derived from a source that requires publishing under a different license, such as data derived from OpenStreetMap, that constitutes a āDerivative Databaseā (as defined under ODbL v1.0), which will be licensed under ODbL v1.0.
So, in my mind, this is shaping up to be a ābattle of licensesā and actual data, where Overture controls a database that has CDLAv2 data + ODBLv1 data and OSM controls a database that has ODbLv1 data.
OMF effectively ācapturesā some portion of OSMās data (perhaps all of it), plus āadds to itā additional data (which obviously suits them as especially relevant to their use cases) using a different license.
Or is that too simplistic a summary? Perhaps Iāve got this all wrong.
It sounds like Star Trekās Borg (a star-sized, partly-synthetic, partly-biological, hive-mind, aggressively hostile society), who, when absorbing new and unwilling intelligent meat, used the motto āResistance is futile; You WILL be assimilated.ā
Iām new to this forum even tho Iāve been using OSMAND for a couple years. I got involved to help correct some one the ground errors I found and have been impressed by the community.
I know that, in my area, since the lockdowns and such, there are many people who are interested in such open community efforts. I am going to be teaching one such group about physical maps, physical compasses, GPS technology and OSMAND in the future. I believe there will be many who want to join the OSM mapping effort as they are already working on such a project using physical maps.
I would hope, and urge, that OSM stays open and uncontrolled by corporate interests. Too often I have seen open projects get funding and then evolve into commercial products. Some things that have gone this way in the past: Blender before NaN went out of business and Open Office. There are others but I donāt have them on the top of my head.
Please stay FOSS.
I just participated as a listener in the OSMF Board meeting where the license was discussed.
Iām aware licensing stuff can be boring, but:
OSMF board is taking this seriously, so my previous comments are unfair, and Iām publicly acknowledging this. Sorry, yes, OSMF is doing a great job.
It seems that the lawyers of Overture are not as sure if they can relicense the data the way the initial group who created Overture would think would be acceptable under law. Itās too soon to say, but my current personal opinion is: way Overture would share data to differentiate itself from OpenStreetMap (might not be allowed by Overture lawyers (and this is relevant, because the lawyers would care about how their data de facto is created, not just the marketing they do about the data). This would be so beautiful.
Like I commented, this licensing discussions are boring, but the not so public work being done by the board is fantastic.
KÅszÅnÅm, Samu. This is a rather public, ostensibly more clear explanation of Overture from one of its principals (Marc Prioleau, Metaās head of mapping). Although, it sounds to me like Overtureās goals have a great deal of overlap with OSMās basic tenets like āOpen map data changes the equation and provides a level playing field that democratizes mapping,ā and it remains elusive what is different. Ownership and control, or something around there, I would assume. Itās still fuzzy to me.
This (Overtureās development ahead) continues to unfoldā¦
In the mean time it seems the ED has been announced: Marc Prioleau, formerly with Facebook and Facebooks representative on the OSMF advisory board (his career is intertwined with OSM in a couple ways).
The Overture Maps Foundation: Marc Prioleau - MBM#43 ( 1hour:38min ; 16 May 2023 ) āMarc Prioleau is the newly appointed Executive Director to the Overture Maps Foundation (at the date this episode comes out). Overture was originally announced in December 2022, founded by Amazon, Meta, Microsoft and TomTom as part of the Linux Foundation, with the goal of providing a open map data. That sounds a lot like what OpenStreetMap set out to achieveā¦ so why start something new? Marc has some answers to that question, and it isnāt his first time thinking about the future of mappingā
The Overture Maps Foundation aims to build open map data for people who provide mapping services for a variety of applications. Led by Executive Director Marc Prioleau, the foundation has support from big tech names like Microsoft, Amazon, Meta, and TomTom and seeks to develop an open-source, high-definition mapping standard for the aviation industry. Overture aims to build the best open map through collaboration with a large community, including a range of company sizes, government entities, and non-profits that can use and feed back into the map to make it better. The foundation differentiates itself from the OpenStreetMap project by focusing on map services for customers rather than building a community of local mappers. Prioleau stresses the importance of having a common map that provides a shared spatial framework for different wearables and augmented reality devices and highlights the safety aspect of having a common map for autonomous vehicles.
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00:00:00 In this section, the podcast host introduces Mark Prioleau, the newly appointed Executive Director of the Overture Maps Foundation, which aims to build open map data for people who provide mapping services for a variety of applications. The Foundation is different from the OpenStreetMap project, as it has support from big tech names and is part of the Linux Foundation. Mark Prioleau, coming from a background in mapping, is not a technologist but has extensive experience working around technology and understanding its implications and directions. He identifies himself with the mapping world and has varied interests beyond that. The podcast host also thanks the episodeās sponsor, OpenCage, for providing an affordable, reliable geocoding API built on open data sources, and a generous free trial.
00:05:00 In this section, Marc Prioleau discusses his career in business development, explaining that through partnerships, companies can work together creatively to find places where they can exchange value for interesting deals. Prioleau said business development is a title that means different things in different companies. He also shared how he went from majoring in chemistry to working in different technology companies, including Trimble Navigation, where he worked in a group selling expensive GPS receivers. At the time, the GPS technology had limitations, and signal acquisition could take as long as minutes to complete, but they found markets that could work with those limitations while pointing towards technology advancements.
00:10:00 In this section, the speaker reflects on the early days of GPS and how the ability to locate oneself anywhere on Earth was a remarkable achievement at the time. He believes that understanding the origins of things helps people appreciate what they have today. He cites the example of a startup commissioning an artist to imagine the different ways technology could evolve to enable ubiquitous location services, which eventually became a reality with GPS in phones, cars, games, and more. The speaker also talks about the Overture Maps Foundation, a new initiative that brings together giants like Microsoft, Amazon, Meta, and TomTom to develop an open-source, high-definition mapping standard for the aviation industry. As the executive director of the foundation, the speaker is tasked with getting companies to collaborate and contribute to the project, which he believes can transform the way air travel is experienced around the world.
00:15:00 In this section, Marc Prioleau explains the goals and objectives of the Overture Maps Foundation, which was established in December 2020. The foundation is focused on building open map data for customers who provide map services to a variety of applications. The core tenants of the foundation are to ensure that the data is open, can meet the demands of applications, and can best be done in a coordinated and collaborative effort. Overture does not aim to build a community of mappers like OpenStreetMap but instead focuses on serving a different customer base by offering map services. The foundation aims to build the best open map through a large community, including a range of company sizes, government entities, and non-profits that can use and feed back into the map to make it better.
00:20:00 In this section, Marc Prioleau discusses the importance of data and the various sources used by Overture Maps Foundation. These sources include open government data, data generated through sensors and AI, as well as OpenStreetMap data. He explains that Overture Maps Foundation aims to provide an organized schema of high-quality data that can be used by people building map applications and allow other data sources to be added on top of that reference system. Prioleau then notes that while OpenStreetMap also aims to build a map, the focus of the community has been on the mapping process and building a large community, which is distinct from Overture Maps Foundationās mission. He explains the difference between the artist and the merchant perspectives, where the former is all about the craft and the process of doing, while the latter values the outcome and the tools used to achieve it.
00:25:00 In this section, Marc Prioleau discusses the philosophical divide that exists in OpenStreetMap between building a community of local mappers and building a map through the best means possible. He believes that Overture separates these two ambitions and recognizes what OpenStreetMap does very well. He adds that Overture will lean heavily on OpenStreetMap as it is the best source of amazing map data that will complement the Overture maps. Prioleau also mentions the example of the earthquakes in Turkey where the OpenStreetMap community mobilized to quickly build a much better map of the affected regions, which Overture will not be able to match anytime soon. He recognizes that corporate entities like Meta and Apple have made significant edits in OpenStreetMap and acknowledges that certain types of edits work extremely well in OpenStreetMap, such as finding things that have changed and making edits on them. Additionally, bulk edits, known as imports in OpenStreetMap, are another category where Prioleau cites the example of 33,000 building footprints in Redlands, imported to OpenStreetMap by Overture in one go using specific methods and technologies.
00:30:00 In this section, Marc Prioleau discusses the changing needs of map services in the last decade and the significance of having up-to-date map data. He explains how the level of detail in maps has increased tremendously over the years with the development of autonomous vehicles and how the timeliness of map data has become critical to delivering accurate navigation instructions. Prioleau cites the example of a closed exit due to tree cutting and how the navigation system should have updated its data to prevent misleading users. He then talks about the paradigm shift in map building if Tesla were to map everything every day and how it can change the entire concept of creating a map. Finally, Prioleau shares his insights into the changing needs of mapping and how it will impact future map building.
00:35:00 In this section, the speaker discusses the increasing customer expectations of mapping services. As applications get better, customers expect more accuracy, features, and real-time updates. The speaker cites the example of a navigation appās estimated time of arrival, which was not a precise metric a decade ago but is now expected to be, down to the minute. The quality control of the flow of data is crucial for better performance, especially for precision and timeliness. The speaker mentions the trends of increased attribution and a more 3D map. Additionally, the digital map must be updated frequently to provide an excellent user experience. The speaker concludes by discussing how the use of real-time feedback from users can lead to more accurate and up-to-date maps.
00:40:00 In this section, the interviewee and interviewer discuss what the Overture Maps Foundation will provide, as it is just data that constantly changes. The guest notes that customers of Overture are map service providers, and so Overture should provide data in a way that meets the needs of those customers. At present, Overture is about five months old, and so many invisible things have been developed, such as data schema and reference systems. In the future, Overture will need to meet the continuously updating map demand by moving towards a more continuous process. As the market tells us harshly if services arenāt meeting its needs, Overture needs to be attuned to the industryās needs and evolve accordingly. The guest notes that Overture has the potential to collect the widest range of inputs and offer amazing processing technology to satisfy customersā needs, such as Metaās computer vision technology, which can turn pictures into map data.
00:45:00 In this section, Marc Prioleau discusses the value of Overtureās segmentation tool and how it can drastically increase the reach of a technology by lowering the amount of friction required to use it. For example, someone used the tool to take aerial imagery of cities and pulled out crosswalks very quickly. He believes that the ability to use a widely available tool to do any segmentation very quickly is revolutionary and will change the industry significantly in the next three years. Marc also explains the reason behind going down the foundation route instead of a more closed still partnership between companies - to ensure that the best map is created with the widest range of inputs and sensors processed through advanced technology. Additionally, the foundationās approach emphasizes the usage of maps, as people move towards augmented reality and autonomous vehicle applications, and they become a part of the map.
00:50:00 In this section, Marc Prioleau discusses the importance of having a common map that provides a shared spatial framework for different wearables and augmented reality devices. He emphasizes that the map needs to be open and shared so that all companies can participate in its development, and people can interact with the same digital assets regardless of the device they are using. Furthermore, he stresses the importance of having a stable reference system that allows companies to append their proprietary data onto the map in a meaningful way. Prioleau also highlights the safety aspect of having a common map for autonomous vehicles, where collaboration can lead to building the safest map possible.
00:55:00 In this section of the video, Marc Prioleau discusses the approach that the Overture Maps Foundation took when launching its platform. The foundationās aim was to create the idea and launch it with a small number of companies that already had significant investments in open data. Prioleau explains why Google and Apple were not part of the initial launch, as the foundation didnāt want to spend the next two years talking about how they were going to do it if too many people were involved. Furthermore, he discusses the reasons Google Maps and Apple Maps make money and how they compete with other mapping companies.
Marc Prioleau, in his interview with MBM, discusses the Overture Maps Foundation and its initiatives. He highlights the challenges in the mapping industry, including the difficulty in updating map data, and how Overture Maps Foundation aims to create a jointly held open map that everyone can use. Prioleau also talks about the organizationās decision-making process, membership levels, and the benefits of being part of the Linux Foundation project. He emphasizes the importance of growth and contributions from members in the foundationās success. While engineering is a core part of the project, the foundation focuses on being nimble and allowing for a variety of inputs in technology and data. Prioleau also discusses the challenges of attaching licenses to data layers and building a productive community. Finally, he recommends the book āNever Lost Againā and suggests supporting the podcast on Patreon.
More details
01:00:00 In this section, Marc Prioleau discusses how OpenStreetMap changed the mapping market by making it easier for people to contribute to open map data. He notes that while mapping software is challenging, the biggest barrier to entry is the data itself due to the enormous resources and people it requires to update. Prioleau believes that building a jointly held open map that everyone can use would change the market and create a different value proposition. He compares this to the concept of training a monkey to juggle flaming batons, where the key is to solve the hardest problem first, which in this case, is the map data. Prioleau also discusses Overture Maps Foundationās decision-making process and highlights the benefits of being part of the Linux Foundation project.
01:05:00 In this section, Marc Prioleau explains the decision-making process and membership levels of the Overture Maps Foundation. The steering committee sets priorities and budgets for the project as a whole, while the working group level is focused on building the maps and influenced by good ideas and a consensus decision-making process. The general level of membership has the power to control the working groupās direction and there is a voting mechanism. The contributor level allows people to join and contribute their ideas or data, even if itās not immediately open-source. The Linux Foundation provides best practices for open-source communities, an independent organization, and the infrastructure needed for success. Marcās main role is to provide a link between the execution and strategy of the project.
01:10:00 In this section, Marc Prioleau discusses the importance of growth for Overture Maps Foundation, which is an outcome of doing the right things. He emphasizes that the more people join the community, the better the data becomes, and talks about what people can bring to the community to make it better. Currently, Overture has one full-time employee, and contributions from members play a crucial role in the projectās success. The foundation also benefits from legal support, program management, marketing support, and other services provided by the Linux Foundation. Marc mentions that engineering is a core part of the project, and they have engineers from different companies working together to develop real work. There is a possibility of hiring engineers in the organization, but Marc believes that the memberās contribution is essential to collaborative open-source projectsā success.
01:15:00 In this section, Marc Prioleau discusses the Overture Maps Foundationās potential value and contributions to the mapping project. While the organization can provide direction and aid in resolving issues, transferring all engineering work to the foundation could lead to a less rich project. Thus, the foundation aims to focus on being nimble and allowing for a variety of inputs in terms of technology and data. The foundation is considering three categories of data: primary data that goes directly into maps, open data that can be processed to create map data, and limited-use data that might be made available for specific cases. The legal aspect of licensing is also discussed, and the foundation prefers a permissive open-source license known as cdla permissive 2.0. However, the complexity of licensing is not in understanding it but rather ensuring that the data retains the correct license as it goes in and out of maps.
01:20:00 In this section, Marc Prioleau discusses the challenge of attaching licenses to various layers of data in a coherent manner and mentions that it is actually two problems in one: the data itself and the licensing around it. Prioleau explains that different licenses have different implications and mentions how a real challenge in open source is to build a community thatās productive enough that people see the value of contributing to it. He compares this to the conversation happening in the earth observation field, where there is a move towards recognizing that the value of images is their timeliness, and opening up archival imagery is becoming increasingly important, as recency of data is becoming more and more available as well. Finally, Prioleau talks about how a lot of the groundwork for the Overture Maps Foundation has been on developing a schema and a reference entity system to ensure that the data is understood and can be documented and added to, which is important for their target customer.
01:25:00 In this section, Marc Prioleau discusses the direction of schema building for the Overture Maps Foundation. He anticipates feedback from customers and expects schema to evolve over time. The foundationās focus on data-building mainly encompasses transportation, places data, 3D, and administrative boundaries, depending on the interests of the members. Prioleau believes the next exciting phase is to build data by leveraging the communityās inputs and processes. To build for future markets, Prioleau thinks the foundation should lean into upcoming technologies. Finally, he recommends the book āNever Lost Againā by Bill Killday, which tells the story of Google Maps and its societal impact.
01:30:00 In this section, Marc Prioleau discusses how he finds podcasts to be an effective way to gain different perspectives and ideas, including podcasts related to maps and politics. He recommends āThe Overture Maps Foundationā as an interesting project that requires dedication to produce a high-quality product. Additionally, Marc reflects on how far the mapping industry has come since he began working in GPS in 1995, noting the slow and steady progress over time, while emphasizing the importance of predicting what will happen rather than when it will happen.
01:35:00 In this section, Marc Prioleau discusses the challenges in predicting advancements in technology, citing the example of autonomous vehicles where people thought they would be here in two years when they said that five years ago. He highlights how many factors need to come together for a technology to become integral to everything we are doing, and itās not just one technology getting better. Prioleau states that companies benefit from impatience and pushing these advancements forward. Prioleau also expresses his gratitude for the work the interviewer does in conducting interviews that help him learn about the guests. He encourages listeners to support the podcast on Patreon to help the interviewer produce more high-quality episodes.
āPTV Group joins the Overture Maps Foundation to help build a new collaborative standard for open map dataā
" Karlsruhe 17 May 2023. PTV Group, the global market leader for mobility modeling and simulation software, has joined the Overture Maps Foundation. The mission of the nonprofit organization, which was founded by TomTom, Microsoft, Amazon Web Services, and Meta in December 2022, is to create a new standard for open map data. PTV will support the collaboration with its expertise in multimodal modeling and simulation, as well as map development and mobility data."
