Lovske koče - označevanje

[mk2k22]

Že dalj časa razmišljam, kako bi bilo najbolj smiselno označevati lovske koče pri nas.

V nekaj primerih sem pri nas videl uporabljen spodnji tag:

tourism=hunting_lodge

Ki sicer ni uradno priznan oz. uveljavljen kot tag, vendar pa je očitno po Evropi uporabljen že vsaj 163x, glede na TagInfo stran. Nisem pa prepričan, če je tale “tourism” kategorija taga sicer najbolj posrečena, glede na to, da lovske koče v principu pač niso ravno mišljene kot turistične točke, čeprav pa lahko morda pohodnikom kdaj vseeno nudijo vsaj osnovno zavetišče pred vremensko ujmo, četudi le pod krajšim zunanjim nadstreškom.

Sam jih do sedaj nisem označeval s posebnim tagom, največkrat kar z building=cabin, vendar pa menim, da bi si vseeno zaslužile kakšen bolj specifičen tag, saj jih je pri nas sigurno preko 100 in se večkrat pojavljajo npr. v opisih pohodniških poti ipd. in lahko služijo tudi kot neke vrste orientir na zemljevidu.

Na OSM sem videl tudi uporabo sledečih tagov pri nas:

• tourism=alpine_hut (kar je seveda popolnoma napačno in zavajujoče, zato sem v takšnih primerih tag takoj odstranil v primeru lovskih koč kot takih)

• tourism=wilderness_hut (tudi napačno, ker gre tukaj za zavetišče z ležišči itd, glede na smernice OSM Wikija)

• amenity=shelter + shelter_type=weather_shelter (pogojno OK, če se da stopiti vsaj delno pod zunanji del strehe koče – je pa res, da če pogledaš na OSM Wiki, je pravi weather shelter seveda posebej namenjen vedrenju)

• …in verjetno še kaj…

Od zgornjih se mi morda pogojno zdi sprejemljiv le zadnji (weather_shelter), ker, kot sem v uvodu omenil, lahko zunanji del strehe koče ali redkeje dejanski nadstrešek pri koči včasih nudi vsaj delno/osnovno zatočišče pred dežjem.

Na Slovaškem, recimo, pa uporabljajo svoj tag man_made=forester’s_lodge tako za gozdarske koče kot tudi lovske koče, ki se v renderjih kot npr. Mapy.cz ali Freemap.sk potem prikažejo z ikono z jelenjimi rogovi:

Mapy.cz

Freemap.sk

Vprašanja, ki se porajajo glede označevanja, so torej sledeča:

• tourism=hunting_lodge?
• shelter_type=weather_shelter? (tu je sicer vprašanje, če imajo vse koče dejansko kaj podaljšano streho, pod katero bi lahko pohodnik potencialno stopil? In pa, če je res pravilno takšno označevanje, ali pa se sme označevati samo dejanska “vremenska” zatočišča s takšnim tagom?)
• man_made=forester’s_lodge kot Slovaki?
• nov tag man_made=hunting_lodge?
• Kaj čisto tretjega?

Kot osnovni tag za stavbo pa bi jaz obdržal building=cabin, da ni samo navaden building=yes.

Upam, da se nam uspe kaj dogovoriti.

=============================================

Pa še nekaj primerov lovskih koč:

[martianfreeloader]

Hi,
Thanks for taking on this project!

How about this?

building=cabin
amenity=hunting_stand
hide=yes
shelter=yes

I wouldn’t use the tourism=* key for things that aren’t intended for tourism.

When I go hiking and get surprised by a thunder storm, it’s enough for me to look at the map and search for any building; no matter if it is meant for tourists. In an emergency like that you will be happy with anything, even if it is just under the canopy outside the building.
(Of course, you shouldn’t ever get surprised by a thunder storm when hiking, but we’ve all been there…)

[mk2k22]

Hi,

Thanks for your input.

However, I don’t think amenity=hunting_stand would be a good idea, as there’s a clear distinction between the two. One is a cabin/lodge, while the other one, as the name implies, is a stand/hideout, serving a totally different purpose. There are hundreds of hunting stands across Slovenia, which should be tagged as such, not to be confused with hunting lodges.

[martianfreeloader]

I agree. I was just confused by this like in the wiki:

hide=yes/no - enclosed stands that almost look like a shed

Perhaps, that should be cleaned up.

[Matija_Nalis]

@mk2k22

• tourism=hunting_lodge?

Yes. At least to me, those pictures do seem to be hunting lodges as defined by Wikipedia (as we currently lack OSM wiki for it):

It is also mentioned at https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Mapping_Trails_In_Slovenia#Tourism

A hunting lodge is a small country property specifically used for organising hunting parties

It is also probably access=private + private=members + operator. Or maybe access=permit is multiple hunting clubs have keys/agreements on its use (but that requires local knowledge usually).

While tourism=* might not look like a best key on a first view, it is one of the better ones, especially as the value “Hunting lodge” should be unambiguous as what it means. Sure, it it is not fit for any random tourist, but only for hunters who made previous agreements/have membership. But it is implied in the value name - most hunting lodges work on that principle as far as I can tell. And many other tourism=* lodgings also require people to make arrangements in advance (sometimes well in advance) in order to be able to use them.

• New tag man_made=hunting_lodge?

No, it would be even worse IMHO (after all, by that logic we could put everything either in nature=* or man_made=* keys and we wouldn’t need any others ). Also, currently existing and used tag is almost always better solution that inventing new one.

@mk2k22

• shelter_type=weather_shelter? (the question here is, if all the huts actually have any extended roof under which the hiker could potentially step in? And if such marking is really correct, or can only actual “weather” shelters with such a tag be marked?)

Yes, the porch protected by a roof can be used as such by general public. But admittedly using that tag would only be precise for that specific building:part=*, not for a whole building. But it may be passable to use it as additional tag on whole building too.

@mk2k22

• man_made=forester’s_lodge than Slovaks?

I’d advise against using anything that has a single quote in the name. That is a really bad idea. And it is undocumented. And even more importantly, it does not seem to be forester’s lodge as defined by wikipedia (unless you can knock on the door and a forester will open, which I don’t think those pictures represent):

A forester’s lodge, forester’s house or forester’s hut is the residence of a forester, usually one who is in charge of a forest district.

@mk2k22

As a basic tag for the building, however, I would keep building=cabin that is not just plain building=yes.

Yes, building=cabin seems just fine!

---

To summarize, to be fully pedantic, on the whole building polygon I’d probably use:

building=cabin
tourism=hunting_lodge
access=private
private=members
operator=LD Tržić
contact:*= [... as available ...]

If there is porch where one can hide from the rain, I’d mark that part of the building as:

building:part=porch [... or more popular "=roof" ...]
amenity=shelter
shelter_type=weather_shelter
access=permissive

I’d also add some documentation to the missing wiki pages
(Edit: I just did create basic wiki stub for tourism=hunting_lodge; feel free to improve on it!)

[mk2k22]

Bok Matija,

Thanks for your in-depth reply!

@Matija_Nalis

A hunting lodge is a small country property specifically used for organising hunting parties

From my understanding, this sounds closer to what we call lovski dom here – which is typically a larger building used by a local hunting community for gatherings and other types of events. More like a hunters’ association:

But as per my initial post, I was referring to the hunting lodges or better yet cabins called lovska koča in Slovenian, which are usually quite different from lovski dom I posted above and from what you posted as a hunting lodge in your Wikipedia link – and are certainly not “specifically used for organising hunting parties”.

First of all, lovska koča is generally smaller, built from wood, and mostly located in remote places (often deep in the woods or in the clearing in the woods, sometimes close to mountain pastures or in other remote places at higher altitudes, etc.) and are meant to offer basic shelter with accommodation (mostly) to hunters during hunting, as far as I know. Obviously, there may be exceptions and some of these cabins could also be used for small gatherings outside the cabin once in a while, but as I said above, they serve a different purpose than what your Wiki description suggests, as per my knowledge. Also, as mentioned in my initial post, hikers may make a stop by some of these cabins to weather a storm or take a break, as there would often be benches and/or picnic tables near cabins.

Would be nice if someone else chimed in on this topic as well.

[martianfreeloader]

Folks, please try to keep your contributions concise.

Thanks

[Matija_Nalis]

@martianfreeloader

Folks, please try to keep your contributions concise.

Oh, OK. Sorry about verbosity, I was trying to provide more detailed in-depth review of the options, unaware that it might present an issue.

@mk2k22

First of all, lovska koča is generally smaller

Thanks for clarification of that distinction. I’ll just add here that there exists https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Mapping_Trails_In_Slovenia#Tourism which seems to say that “hunting lodge (lovska koča)” should be mapped as “tourism = hunting_lodge”. I don’t know if that “lovska koča” Slovenian translation & tagging was a community consensus or that one person @Breki idea from 2007 .
There also exists related club=hunting which I’d probably use on the “lovski dom”. Anyway I was just trying to hopefully give some helpful ideas; as an outsider to Slovenian community (I only sometimes bicycle and map a little there) I don’t want to impinge on your consensus making.

[mk2k22]

No worries, your input is definitely appreciated!

Yes, I’m aware of the Mapping Trails in Slovenia Wiki page, but as far as I know no consensus had been reached back then, as the hunting_lodge tag was proposed in 2007 when OSM was pretty much still at its nascent stage.

Anyway, I’m open to ideas and not really against this tourism=hunting_lodge tag, but should we opt for it as a one-size-fits-all tag, then the hunting_lodge Wiki definition should definitely be expanded.

P.S.: thanks for bringing up the club=hunting tag. I believe I’ve actually used it few times before for lovski dom.

[martianfreeloader]

Sorry, I didn’t mean to sound harsh.

Obviously, OSM crucially relies on exchange of information. My apologies.

[Breki]

@Matija_Nalis

I’ll just add here that there exists Mapping Trails In Slovenia - OpenStreetMap Wiki which seems to say that “hunting lodge (lovska koča)” should be mapped as “tourism = hunting_lodge”. I don’t know if that “lovska koča” Slovenian translation & tagging was a community consensus or that one person @Breki idea from 2007 .

Ah, 2007, I was young back when I wrote that . I guess you could say it was a community consensus since the community was really tiny . Reading my revision comment: “‘‘tourism = hunting_lodge’’ is not official or even proposed, but I think it should be OK to use. We can add a proposal”. I don’t know what happened after that.

[mk2k22]

Ok, to keep things simple, I’d be fine with opting for tourism=hunting_lodge for all hunting-related facilities (lovski domovi, lovske koče…), but would still prefer to reconfirm it with at least one other moderator first:

@StefanB ?
@MitjaJez ?
@DavidKarlas ?

In case we’ll have reached an agreement, I’d then suggest expanding the tourism=hunting_lodge Wiki to something along the lines below:

Currently:

A hunting lodge (U.K.) is a small country property specifically used for organising hunting parties.

My proposal for expansion:

It may also refer to a small wooden cabin located deep in the woods or remote mountainous areas, used by hunters during hunting trips. These cabins are simple and have minimal furnishings such as floors, walls, and cupboards. They are designed to provide hunters with everything they need for hunting, sleeping, and staying warm, and may also include basic cooking and bathing facilities.

[martianfreeloader]

As said before, I have concerns using the tourism=* key for something that is not primarily for tourism.

Also, I think we should consult the international community before unilaterally introducing new definitions in the wiki.

[DavidKarlas (David Karlaš)]

Looks like there are at least few building=hunting_lodge and building=hunting_stand in German speaking countries…
Maybe that is way to go, and add tourism=* only when it has regular opening hours and accessible to general public…

[mk2k22]

Thanks for your reply, David.

Hunting stand is a hunting stand, and should remain being used for that sole purpose only. Definitely not appropriate for hunting lodges/cabins imho – quite different purposes of use.

As for building=hunting_lodge…maybe, though it’s just a building=* kind of tag and as far as I can see there only 9 examples of use so far. But I guess it would be passable. On the contrary, there are 163 examples of tourism=hunting_lodge for example.

[MitjaJez (Mitja Jež)]

+1 for building=hunting_lodge and David’s comment about tourism=*.

[Matija_Nalis]

@mk2k22

My proposal for expansion:

It may also refer to a small wooden cabin located deep in the woods or remote mountainous areas, used by hunters during hunting trips. These cabins are simple and have minimal furnishings such as floors, walls, and cupboards. They are designed to provide hunters with everything they need for hunting, sleeping, and staying warm, and may also include basic cooking and bathing facilities.

Sounds good to me. Note that I created that OSM wiki stub linking to wikipedia, as that tag was used but completely undocumented. That wikipedia also links to Jagdschloss - Wikipedia as the more expanded article from German perspective, saying:

Jagdschloss is always related to hunting: the walls may be adorned with antlers and other trophies, with scenes of hunting, and also by a deliberate use of wood or other natural materials.
A Jagdschloss could also be very lavishly furnished, but unlike a Lustschloss, timber-framed buildings or log cabins were not uncommon

@martianfreeloader

Also, I think we should consult the international community before unilaterally introducing new definitions in the wiki.

That sounds reasonable. However that tag was undocumented before this discussion, so my initial OSM wiki linking to wikipedia was as unilateral as the next one. Would you like to open a thread linking here in general tagging category, or would you prefer me to do it?

@DavidKarlas

Maybe that is way to go, and add tourism=* only when it has regular opening hours and accessible to general public…

Note that many of the tourism=* do not have regular opening hours, but are pre-reservation only (e.g. tourism=chalet or tourism=apartment). And some are restricted to only a tiny subset of general population (e.g. tourism=caravan_site).

But I do understand the general sentiment that perhaps a better primary key might have been chosen. The same situation is with some other tags in OSM (e.g. shop=hairdresser is not really a shop).

[Matija_Nalis]

@MitjaJez

+1 for building=hunting_lodge and David’s comment about tourism=*.

What I would like to note (what is perhaps being missed) is that building=* is about (architectural) type of building, not about it’s use.
How does proposed building=hunting_lodge visually/structurally differ from (popular nad documented) building=cabin? That should be documented in its (currently undocumented) wiki, if it is to be used.

For indicating how a building is being used, there is building:use=* tag (with several existing examples of building:use=hunting_lodge too):

The building:use=* key describes what kind of function a building=* serves. This tag can be handy when the form or original purpose of a building differs from its present use.
The function of a building can usually be expressed by combining building= with other common tags, such as amenity=, shop=, or tourism=*.
Imagine a church building used as a library: building=church + amenity=library*

Because one can have (building=cabin is always visually/structurally the same building) :

• building=cabin which is being used as tourism=chalet , but also
• building=cabin being used as building:use=hunting_lodge (or more popular tourism=hunting_lodge, depending what one prefer to use) or
• building=cabin being used as amenity=restaurant
• etc…

[MitjaJez (Mitja Jež)]

Good point, Matija.
So we should tad it with more tags.
Next to building=cabin is there a use of cabin= hunting_lodge or amenity= hunting_lodge?

[mk2k22]

Hi @Matija_Nalis @martianfreeloader ,

Any follow-up regarding this topic?