Flink, Gorillas, Getir, Blinkit, FreshDirect, Самокат, Shipt, Gopuff, Instacart etc. are all so-called online grocers which deliver a similar range of food as convenience stores or even supermarkets via app to your home. I guess, these can be seen as one category of so-called dark stores.
At least in my area, the delivery people use branded e-bikes and (hence) they have bases the size of convenience stores all over town which look like convenience store depositories when you get a peek inside.
As far as I know, most operate as delivery-only shops, i.e. you cannot go inside and buy something.
How to tag these?
shop=convenience + delivery=only seems a fit. However, it seems to me a bit of a troll tag because it requires every data consumer interesting in go-to places to also evaluate the delivery=only tag.
On the other hand, building=warehouse is tagged on buildings, not on the retail unit but these things are nothing like Amazon warehouses and the like.
Also, on the dark store wikipedia page, I read that some of these stores have at least also a Click-and-collect option, which means that you buy the stuff in the app and can go there to collect it like many delivery-only pizza places have. Amazon fresh apparently also has regular “brick & mortar” stores alongside their delivery service. Also, normal supermarket chains increasingly also offer delivery services. (I never used any of this, so I have no idea how they compare.)
Sounds like a new tag is required, as shop=convenience would become overloaded by including these. Including delivery=only does seem correct / “a fit,” though a “primary” tag might be storage_shop=*, as in storage_shop=grocery or storage_shop=office_supplies. I imagine the former to be much more common and the latter as a coined invention of mine to show the flexibility of the storage_shop=* key as “a location, not open to public shopping directly on-site, which supports online shopping services as a warehouse and base of operations for its delivery personnel.”
So, storage_shop=grocery + delivery=only might work?
You asked for ideas, so I’m “spitballing” (throwing out ideas and seeing if they stick) here; of course, anybody is welcome to sharpen focus here on this.
There also exist somewhat related (but not the same) shop=outpost, but a customer at least can go there themselves and pick up things they bought online.
If customer cannot go there and even pick-up things they’ve bought, but only operators delivery services go from there, then I likely would not tag it as any kind of shop=* as it would be too much of a trolltag…
I’d see it in a similar vein to amenity=post_depot. So perhaps something like amenity=delivery_depot (although I don’t like this specific name, but perhaps something similar).
Or perhaps adopting the term dark store to make amenity=dark_store.
Sounds like some harmony here, as I agree the key shop=* does not include these things.
An industrial=warehouse or logistics tag or value, well, that seems lke it would better go on the building (and/or “larger scale”) rather than a “business node” (which might get a shop=* tag but better deserves a storage_shop=* or different, non-shop=* tag).
These are a kind of a new, more-unique thing, let’s give these the distinct tag such things deserve. The question is how to tag. Does that include discussion of how it might better scale? Well, yes.
And there are concepts of “depot” (of varying sorts, sometimes “pick-up only” sometimes not). And there is wide inclusion here around “dark stores” as a more-recent emerging reality all around me and the world; our world is rich with these nuances, OSM does our best to keep up. (There isn’t an OSM wiki for amenity=dark_store, though I suppose we might write one, so it’s merely a concept, sort of well-shared, sort of not).
We’ve broken open a few things here, we could scramble these in short order or linger over how to cook them for a while.
I say no to shop=grocery_delivery, because the places being described are not places one can “shop” (at, if you like “at” at the end of a sentence). All other shops (in OSM’s domain of shop=*) distinctly are open to the public for “shopping.”
as those last two would have to be fleshed out. If you like, building=industrial on the building polygon. If it is also going on there (maybe one business, maybe another or multiple businesses) a node for industrial=logistics. This might all be inside of a polygon tagged landuse=industrial or landuse=commercial (but it wouldn’t be in one tagged landuse=retail).
To flesh out, a one-line (two at most, distilled from this topic) wiki could be written for storage_shop starting with “a location, not open to public shopping directly onsite, which supports online shopping services as a warehouse and base of operations for its delivery personnel.” That’s enough of a kernel from which to grow. Dark_store could be a link to Wikipedia, as we’re all more-or-less doing here.
A 25-word new wiki (storage_shop=*)? 50 with some values of “yes” and “grocery”? Short and sweet!
If you like, building=industrial on the building polygon. If it is also going on there (maybe one business, maybe another or multiple businesses) a node for industrial=logistics. This might all be inside of a polygon tagged landuse=industrial or landuse=commercial (but it wouldn’t be in one tagged landuse=retail).
around here, the getir that opened some time ago is in a former clothing store, at the ground floor of a residential corner building.
I agree that “industrial” would not fit well for these places, and generally this key is linked to landuse=industrial (it’s for land with industrial warehouses, not for any kind of warehouse).
Hm, I think industrial=warehouse or =logistics is out of the picture. It is documented as a subtag of landuse=industrial which would be something very different.
While I would love to not further litter the amenity key and avoid using the shop key for not breaking the expectation that every shop will be accessible (except shop=no, =vacant), I find the existing shop=outpost a surprisingly good fit:
There are already other shops that are accessible usually only to traders: shop=wholesale. Also, there are fast food places that only do delivery.
whether or not such a place offers pick-up (“click and collect”) is really a question of policy that could be changed anytime. If the policy changes (chain-wide), it should not lead to the primary tag having to be changed.
shop=outpost offers a useful subtag space outpost=* analogous to wholesale stores
shop=outpost is a kind of store you wouldn’t search for on the map if you look for a specific product - the wiki describes it as having no or a very limited range of goods in store. So, it wouldn’t be a trolltag to add delivery=only
Are you with me? Then I’d add it to the documentation in the wiki.
Oh, actually, the ID preset for shop=outpost already is translated to “online retailer outpost”, plus I just asked at one of these and pick-up is indeed possible.
shop=outpost may fit for cases where pickup on your own is possible
shop=* - including shop=outpost is not fitting if it is an internal pickup point for couriers and other employees. I would use amenity=warehouse or amenity=dark_store for them. brand=name= etc can be still added.
shop= is not really a good fit where noone from general public is allowed and only employees can enter.
Maybe, but that would change their nature in the same way as changing what is delivered to the shop would change its shop= value.
shop=furniture / shop=sports / shop=fishing could change into each other just by changing policy of what is delivered
but distribution point to couriers/delivery is not a shop/store/point of sale
. I also added a PR to add “Dark shop” (etc) as an alias forshop=outpost for the iD presets
Sorry @Mateusz_Konieczny, I didn’t see your reply until now. However, I would reply to your reply that these kind of online groceries (Gorillas, Getir, Flink, …) are very much alike delivery-only fast-food places like some delivery pizza places etc. just for groceries. Such fast food places we also tag as usual with amenity=fast_food, even if they have delivery=only and takeaway=no tagged. The point of sale for these is also not at that place, but online.
agree, it is a logistic hub with a office office=*
it is also not a amenity
is the top-level tag describing useful and important facilities for visitors and residents,
I see shop chain brands using there homepage (landingpage) as a onlineshop. And want to set them as website=* on every poi of the brand.
Marketingstrategy of the company in OSM. Do we allow that?
The poi should give the information of the location (branch shop).
Openstreetmap is a geographical database, it indicates things at that location. Informative nature. Website information of the location is website=*
If I would encounter such on survey I would definitely retag it as invalid. If you cannot order there then it is not really fast food eatery… If regular person cannot even pickup own orders there then it is completely mistaken. Even if it is in some use.
Marking delivery distribution point with amenity=fast_food with delivery=onlytakeaway=no is about as trolltag as tagging prison as tourism=hostel involuntary=yes
It makes as much sense as marking Pentagon as shop=weapons
Maybe we need some clear alternative tags for that… That would be alternative to marking it as restaurants/shops/etc.
=warehouse is too vague with many meanings. =dark_store seems too specific and literary.
The main issue with =outpost then is it is used for 2 meanings now. The pre-existing one is proposed to be replaced in Proposal:Pickup points - OpenStreetMap Wiki by amenity=product_pickup , plus changes on how =parcel_locker handles them.
Ghost kitchens can be considered together for consistency, which are currently using craft=caterer not amenity= eateries + delivery=only arguable redefinition. Using another amenity= or office= is much better.
not entirely sure is it a big problem here, it seems to be distinct object type with clear meaning and likely to be relatively popular in near future at least…
though may be confusing for nonnative speakers…
Are there better terms available here? Or keys better than amenity=
office=dark_store seems not a good idea, these are not really offices but small warehouses/distribution points.
amenity=delivery_depot (analogous to amenity=post_depot) has been suggested in this thread.
If you think my edit to the wiki to include this type into shop=outpost is not good, and the suggested amenity=* tag is neither, then IMO the closest fit would be a office=* with a fitting (new) subtag such as office=delivery (+delivery=convenience?).