Bus routes in Ljubljana

Thank you for this, @StefanB !

When inspecting data/lpp/stops.csv, I noticed that LPP’s capitalization of bus stop names seems to be inconsistent. LPP seems to spell some, but not all, stops with ALLCAPS.

For consistency and readability, I suggest to divert from LPP’s capitalization scheme in OSM:

  • Only capitalize the first letter of a bus stop name (e.g. Barje), even if LPP capitalizes the whole word (BARJE).
  • Exception: If the bus stop name is an acronym (e.g. AMZS), then capitalize the whole word.
  • In composite words, apply this rule to the components, e.g. spell BTC-Atlantis in OSM.

What do you think?

I fully agree on this. Most search engines will disregard the casing, looks nicer on the maps, but if any rendering requires ALL CAPS for aesthetic reasons it can still do so.

Also, there is ref if it needs a perfect match.

The purpose of that github repository was to compare the OSM data with official LPP one. Currently it is only possible to see the current data and changes in the bus lines / stops via git diffs. The data is being updated daily.

I have also added few more links to the External Links section at the botto of that page: Bus routes in Ljubljana - OpenStreetMap Wiki

Do you know PTNA?

A similar list as under “LPP - Ljubljanski Potniški Promet”, including QA, can be created using PTNA.
I can configure this for you and it will run each night and create an overview on what’s expected and what’s actually mapped in OSM.
Example: Zagreb

Besides this, do you have GTFS data for your area? PTNA can analyze and prepare it as well.

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I’ve configured PTNA to include MPP routes in Ljubljana

I configured three links into the OSM-Wiki (still empty pages though), please let me know whether they are OK or should be changed

I can also easily change the ‘network’ values which are allowed PTNA - SI-Ljubljana-MPP

I can also change the name “SI-Ljubljana-MPP” for the analysis, if you like.

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I was not familiar with the PTNA, but it looks really promising, thanks for setting up PTNA for Ljubljana!
We should probably consolidate network and operator names, as they vary a bit (abbreviations etc).
Analysis diff view can help us track changes :stuck_out_tongue:

There seem to be some ferries from Germany listed for some reason :slight_smile:

Indeed, the LPP operator in Ljubljana offers the official GTFS feed at https://data.lpp.si/api/gtfs/feed.zip and could probably be nice to include it for reference.

A derp.si team has set up their own generator for GTFS feeds:

  • building it for Maribor (Marprom operator) and
  • adjusting some errors in official Ljubljana (LPP) feed.

GTFS files are available as build results of builds, eg, currently the latest GTFS build 744927793. Not sure how to get a static URL for such needs.

I’m not yet sure about the wiki sub-pages purposes:

  • CSV list could be useful, but likely redundant to GTFS feed? We could also generate it from lpp/lines.csv, which is scaraped from official lpp.si website
  • /Analiza wiki sub-page with just the link can be included in the main page and
  • we can also discuss PTNA in the Talk of above page there if needed?

I have aded the link to PTNA to the Bus routes in Ljubljana - OpenStreetMap Wiki page, to keep it simple for now.

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@ToniE, please replace the “MPP” in the name with “LPP” as this is the company name abbreviation (Ljubljanski potniški promet). MPP stands for Medkrajevni potniški promet, which are wider regional bus routes, operated by the same company, but with different tariffs and less frequent.

Done … new analysis is running, will be visible in a few minutes

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You’re welcome. the two links here do not work any longer: replaced ‘MPP’ in the URL by ‘LPP’

Yes, they are included as a side effect of the Overpass-API query: this searches for parent (parent, parent, …) relations of route and route_master relations. As there are some Flixbus routes passing your area and some of them use the ferry at Constance @ Lake Constance, those relations are included in the dataset, and as the ‘network’ value is empty for the ferries, they are listed.

Yes, I had a brief look into the data, seems OK. I’ll check that - latest on Saturday.

Yeah, a static URL is preferred. Also a Webserver supporting HTTP “HEAD” with “last-modified” header will ease the evaluation of the release date (curl -sI)

Yes, agreed. The OSM-Wiki-page allows some layout control thought.
PTNA’s GTFS analysis supports creating this list from GTFS sources - without layout commands

Both pages are for historic reasons but not needed. Discussions (of general interest) can also take place on my private OSM-Wiki page for PTNA. LPP related discussions can take place here or per PM (PM not useful to share information globally or country-wide)

@StefanB just forgot to ask: under which license can we use this data? Can’t find any hints on their pages.

@ToniE the license is not explicitly stated, but it is coming from a company owned by the city municipality of Ljubljana, which must respond to freedom of information requests, and such data is usually licensed with some sort of CC-BY license

Katalog informacij javnega značaja | Ljubljanski potniški promet (only in slovenian :frowning: )

Hmm, CC-BY-4.0 is not compatible with OSM, CC-BY-2.0 might be compatible, others: ?

Not a licence expert, but “wiki says no” there I’m afraid. “others” might be of course :slight_smile:

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Hi, direct links to the latest generated GTFS are available:

LPP: https://gitlab.com/derp-si/gtfs-generators/-/jobs/artifacts/main/raw/lpp_gtfs.zip?job=LPP

Marprom: https://gitlab.com/derp-si/gtfs-generators/-/jobs/artifacts/main/raw/marprom_gtfs.zip?job=marprom

Regarding licensing, I think I might be able to get explicit permission from the agencies for inclusion in OSM. Is there any kind of template for that?

Alternatively, I could probably get them to publish it under CC-BY 4.0 and additionally sign the attribution waiver for OSM: Use of CC BY 4.0 licensed data in OpenStreetMap | OpenStreetMap Blog

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Good news, actually! Both are OK and fine.

For a template: all waiting, negative and positive attempts to get permissions will finally be documented in the OSM-Wiki permissions page, maybe you’ll find something appropriate - I know only some in German language.

Import/ODbL Compatibility - OpenStreetMap Wiki contains a link to Use of CC BY 4.0 licensed data in OpenStreetMap | OpenStreetMap Blog and an english template: CCBYPermission.odt - Google Drive , so that could be used as a start.

Is there an update on the licensing part? I’ve been away for few days.

While we wait for the GTFS license information i prepared the CSV list of routes:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Bus_routes_in_Ljubljana/Ljubljana-routes

@ToniE i would appreciate if you manage to review it from the syntax perspective.

We’ll probably have a bunch of warnings at the first few runs due to casing differences that we’ll have to fix in this CSV.

Thanks @StefanB

looking good. And “re:” the “casing differences”: doesn’t make a difference for you at the moment.

This is relevant only if you have two (or more) bus lines with the same number (‘ref’) and same ‘operator’ in different areas. PTNA then uses ‘from’ and ‘to’ of the relations to compare them with data from CSV (from and to). So, you seem to be safe at the moment.

Example: Busses ‘A’, … appear quite often in DE-SN-VMS (‘A’ 11 times) in different cities, partly with same ‘operator’

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now includes also suburban passanger lines “Primestni Potniški Promet”, designated with network = PPP and PPP - Urbana.

LPP calls some of these Integrirane linije and Medkrajevne linije: https://www.lpp.si/sites/www.jhl.si/files/lpp_si/stran/datoteke/medkrajevni_zemljevid_mobilnosti_in_obmocja_potovanja.pdf