Hello everyone!
I know copying data from Google Maps is a no-no, but I was toying with the idea of using it just to get a list of businesses in my town. I would then go to their websites or check each location in person to get their details and add their info to OSM.
Is this allowed, or I’d better just add what I can easily see? There are many businesses in an entresol that doesn’t really pop out and are easy to miss.
You’re not the first one to suggest that. Technically you’re not infringing any copyright, but do note it’s difficult for any details not to leak (such as inconsistencies in names of businesses). Businesses in general are quite sloppy about stuff like phone numbers, opening hours, addresses (is there any on the building? is it reflected in government databases?) so one must not go beyond “there’s a restaurant here at coordinates such and such” when sourcing survey targets from GMaps.
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Regardless of copyright considerations, google ToS don’t allow use of their services to improve other platforms. Systematically scraping business information from google to generate complete lists of business would IMHO be clearly outside of incidental use.
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Ignoring that using Google is not allowed, why then check websites. Why not go for a walk or bike ride and have a look?
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When using Google Maps/Google Earth, you may not (or allow those acting on your behalf to):
[…]
4. use Google Maps/Google Earth to create or augment any other mapping-related dataset (including a mapping or navigation dataset, business listings database, mailing list, or telemarketing list) for use in a service that is a substitute for, or a substantially similar service to, Google Maps/Google Earth;
Source: Google Maps/Google Earth Additional Terms of Service.
Ignoring that using Google is not allowed, why then check websites. Why not go for a walk or bike ride and have a look?
Because there are businesses that don’t have their info available from the street, usually they just put their name and floor outside (and some of them you’d miss entirely if you didn’t know they were there). I’d need to search for them on the internet anyway.
@RicoElectrico “there’s a restaurant here at coordinates such and such" is exactly what I was thinking of doing. The only thing I’d need to know is that there is something there that I have to check out, the rest of the info would be gathered by me.
@SimonPoole hmm, that’s a good point about their ToS. Then I guess it would be OK in terms of copyright, as @RicoElectrico said, but would break Google’s terms. Even then… that’s a personal thing, isn’t it? I mean, nobody would actually know why I went to check something and OSM should not be affected, am I right?
To be honest, I’d suggest that businesses that aren’t verifiable on a survey (for example because they’re something like a “work from home” internet/mail-order business only) don’t actually belong in OSM.
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Yes you are correct. Just don’t copy any information from Google.Maps.
“Use” is not vague, it is broad, and Google probably intended it to be broad. If they only intended to prohibit copying, they would have only said “copy” (they do elsewhere in the ToS), instead they also included this section about using.
Indeed very broad. So broad and unspecific that the outer limits are unprovable and unenforceable. Unless someone states that they used Google Maps before obtaining information from a different source and then adding it to OSM, there is no way to know and thus it doesn’t matter. I could use Google maps to make a list of local business names. Then use that list to collect information about them through a combination of in person surveying and online research. Then use that information to update OpenStreetMap. Nobody will know that I used Google Maps to make the original list. I could have made the list entirely from surveying in person and the results would be the same.
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Can you cite any case law in regards to being unenforceable? In what jurisdictions? You seem to be very certain of this.
Just because you might be able to get away with violating a contract (the Terms of Service in this case) doesn’t mean that you haven’t violated it, and you might not be as clever as you think you are, and your violation may be detectable. Besides we should “do the right thing” and respect the intellectual property rights of others, just as we expect others to respect OSM’s license.
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Yes, with the caveat that some businesses are signposted but not prominently enough to see from the street. In general, these businesses are also eligible for inclusion in OSM.
I routinely map in areas where buildings have enough of a setback from the street that you need very good eyesight to discern the signs. Or there are office buildings in which the individual business names are only posted in the lobby. The size and prominence of a sign is mostly a function of how much the owner relies on foot traffic (or car traffic), but there are other considerations, such as local regulations that seek to preserve the residential character of a neighborhood.
That said, “It’s hard to do it the hard way,” isn’t a very good legal defense.
Have you considered any alternatives to Google Maps? For example, Overture Maps has released a dataset of points of interest under a permissive license that’s supposed to be ODbL-compatible. Much has been written about the unreliability and messiness of this dataset, but I suspect it would be a less fraught starting point for your research than Google Maps. If you don’t want to process the data yourself, there are some third-party tools for inspecting it:
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IANAL, so no. Note that I didn’t say it was never enforceable, I said the outer limits are unenforceable. The clause in question from Google Maps terms of service:
you may not … use Google Maps/Google Earth to create or augment any other mapping-related dataset
There are plenty of actions that would clearly violate this clause. If I make a list of local businesses I found on Google maps, then do my own research about them but am not very thorough, I might not notice that some of Google’s listings are out of date and the businesses don’t exist any more. Or they might have the name incorrect, or the location. If I end up adding that same incorrect information to OSM, that would be a clear violation as the use of Google Maps would be obvious.
However there are plenty of other actions that I do not consider a violation of this clause and yet can still be characterised as “using Google Maps to contribute to OSM”. I use Google Maps all the time in my daily life. I learn about different businesses in my area from this usage. I also learn about these businesses in other ways like visiting them in person, seeing advertisements, visiting their websites, etc. For every business I’ve added to OSM, I’ve surely also looked at it’s listing in Google Maps at some point. I consider my actions to be “contributing local knowledge to OSM”, but it is impossible to tell how much my local knowedge has been influenced by Google Maps. One could easily argue that my actions fall under the above ToS clause, but that argument would be ridiculous because the facts I’m learning aren’t subject to copyright. These sorts of actions are the outer limits I’m talking about.
So what were talking about here is being a bit more systematic and writing down business names from Google Maps instead of just stashing them away in one’s brain. You argue using such a list to then contribute to OSM is a violation of the ToS. I argue that it’s not so different from simply recalling facts one may have learned partially from Google Maps and adding that local knowledge to OSM. Maybe it comes down to intent? If I make a list with the intent to add these businesses to OSM then I have violated the ToS? So if I make a list of businesses in my area with the intent to visit them all, then later I decide to use the knowledge I’ve gleaned to update OSM then I haven’t violated the ToS? How would anyone know my intent? How would anyone know I’ve even made a list or that it originated from Google Maps?
The fact that a business with a certain name exists (or no longer does) in a certain place is not subject to intellectual property rights. What I’ve described is also not getting away with anything. It is following the spirit of these broad terms with the specific intention of not violating them. If one wants to be 100% safe, never open Google Maps while even thinking about contributing to OSM. However, it’s clear to me it is entirely possible to use Google Maps, learn things from it, then replace that information with local knowledge gained elsewhere and safely contribute this to OSM with no ToS violation. If this weren’t the case we’d have to tell anyone who admitted to using Google Maps in their daily life that they aren’t welcome to contribute to OSM. Of course the more systematic one tries to be, the more likely they will actually end up violating the ToS. I would not attempt something like this on a large scale for this reason.
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There are cases that have touched upon “I used another map to plan my surveying for my own map”. Virtual Map vs Singapore Land Authority is the first one that comes to mind. It’s sufficient of a grey area (contract notwithstanding) that it wouldn’t be wise to rely on any particular interpretation for OSM - historically, and rightly IMO, we eschew grey areas.
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Yes, with the caveat that some businesses are signposted but not prominently enough to see from the street. In general, these businesses are also eligible for inclusion in OSM.
These are the kinds of businesses I was thinking of. In Spain, we have a ton of dentists, lawyers, associations, doctors, etc. that don’t have big signs displayed. Maybe a small sign beside the intercom, but that’s it. Their clients know that the offices are at “45 XYZ street, 1st floor B”.
Overture Maps
I’ll check this out, thanks!
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