корисни извори података - useful data sources

Evo stavih neki post http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1497705

Pomenuli smo puteve, i evo nekih mapa koje mogu poslužiti kao referenca mapa mreže magistralinih i regionalnih puteva u srbiji i isto to u pdf varijanti sa sajta putevi srbije, takođe koristan izvor sa wikipedije Датотека:Мрежа Државних путева I реда у Србији - Highway Network in Serbia.jpg gde su naznačene i planirane trase. Ali primetio sam da postoje nedoslednosti na ovim mapama i većina izvora koje sam ja uspeo da nađem nije dovoljno detaljna ili podatci nisu ažurirani, npr. kada su evropski putevi u pitanju http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_E-road_network na mapi koja je zvanična na sajtu puteva srbije put E771 ide od rumunske granice preko niša i kosova a na wiki stranici piše da ide samo do niša, onda na većini ovih mapa je skoro nemoguće proceniti gde neki putevi počinju gde prolaze i gde se završavaju, primer M25 dali ide kroz centa niša ili obilaznicom itd. sve su to sitnice oko kojih sam se dvoumio kako mapirati.

Could we make an entry into our Wiki with all the data sources we have approval from?
Could you enter yours there, too?

I think this would be more than helpful.


[edit 13.4.: No response => did it myself; feel free to add anything you know]

I know SuboticaGIS, but where can we access the data of Senta and Vrsac?

Are you talking about just Subotica or any GIS? Because I don’t see why we would have permission to use any GIS data?

Most exact way of using it:
-Look for the GIS you want to transfer to JOSM
-fullscreen mode is recommended
-press “PrntScrn (PrintScreen)”
-open up any image editing software, e. g. Windows Paint if you don’t have any better (…IrfanView etc.)
-crop to your needs, then save as JPG
-upload at Geothings MapWarper http://warper.geothings.net/ (you’ll need an account first)
-rectify your map by adding at least 3 control points to the uploaded map and in the OSM map on the right
-when finished, click “WARP!”, check the map for correct position in the right window (overlay)
-in the “Export” tab, right-click on “WMS link suitable for JOSM”, then copy the link address
-in JOSM, go to Settings/WMS-TMS/WMS, click “+” to add another layer, name it, then paste the link in the upper link window in the WMS tab, then press “check layers”
-when the layers are downloaded from the server, open up in the main(middle) window by clicking on the “+”
-click on the first layer, but not on the “original” layer; the link to the layer will appear in the lower link window
-click OK, then you can start using it in JOSM as a layer via the “Background” menu

Senta does not have these maps in an digitised form. We have organised a scan of a map, added the map to an UNM Mapserver and have used it the background of JOSM (like Bing). Maps for Vrsac you can find here http://www.vrsac.com/active/sr-latin/home/preporucujemo/generalni_plan.html
Such maps you can find on many city homepages across Serbia. Just visit the local cadastral office and ask if they are fine with the usage. It think they are ok because in Vrsac they said that they are not sure why I am asking for some approval in written form. They think that if it is on the internet, they allow it everyone automatically. But the presentation I made and the permission from Subotica was interessting for them and convinced them to give me something in writting.

I guess persons you talked to are not well informed. Cadastar maps of Serbia are available only if you pay, and cost is about 500 EUR per sheet.

I agree that such maps should be freely available as they are all created using our tax money, but it is not the case. Using them without proper approval is illegal. :frowning:

cirko, do you have legal rights to upload all those orto-photo images at Geothings MapWarper? Maps you placed there are from RGZ and it they surely cannot be used in manner you do. And you did not georeference them properly! Why are you doing this? It is illegal, it is not allowed by OSM and you produce false data into map. No one can benefit from that!

The maps on Vrsac’s homepage are not cadastral maps, at least not in this resolution. Regarding Subotica and Senta, we have proper approval
url deleted

Would appreciate if you would be a bit more careful with words like “illegal”

What is wrong about: “Using them without proper approval is illegal.” I spoke about cadastar maps. Cost is 500 EUR per sheet and only for internal use, not for publication of it. Opstina has no authority to make that data freely available.

I do not like it, but that is how it is. They sell us maps we already payed for and they have law to support them.

RGZ and VGI shot down several sites just for showing their maps without approval.

I am not familar with the different type of maps in Serbia but there are probably many other useful maps, not only cadastral maps. Regarding the content on Subotica GIS, Nis GIS (http://gis.ni.rs/ often down) and many other that show cadastral borders…These were (partly?) funded by the EU with the condition to make it available to the public. Some text is on the RGZ website and the RGZ has co-signed the agreement so RGZ is aware that the cities make these data available on the internet.

RGZ got orto-photo imagery of all Serbia as a project to make maps available to everyone but they are still holding them back. All they did was to show data on geosrbija.rs but in a manner that can be just viewed and they do not allow any other use. that is how they see “making them available to everyone”.

Any official GIS in Serbia is based on cadastar maps.

And they have law supporting them.

If you have legal evidence that those sources should be freely available to everyone, and that actual situation is against the law, then you should produce them. It may lead to initiative to really make them freely available.

For, now, that data costs 500 EUR per sheet, and that is only for internal use.

I think that this is going a bit in the wrong direction. I am unwilling to provide you any evidence for anything. It is you who say that the Gradska uprava Subotica is not knowing what they are doing. Where is your evidence for that?
To be honest, I prefer to believe the Gradska uprava Subotica, the fifth largest city in Serbia and not someone in an Internet forum. They distinguish in their approval between data they allow usage and data for which they do not own the rights. So it seems they are aware of the rights they have.
And it is not true that the RGZ holds the orthophotos back. You can at least view it in the internet without any charge

I know several cases, including myself when any attempt to get such data was denied. The only way to get that data is to pay for it and it is limited for internal use.

Right. Gradska uprava Subotica, the fifth largest city in Serbia, should know that by Constitution of Serbia they are obligated to allow usage of Serbian language and Serbian Cyrillic but when you go to their site, you may see they do not. They do not obey Constitution and you expect them to obey lower laws?

Being able to see the data and to use it are quite different things.

Ok. I will not argue with you furthermore and end this here. Just one last thing. Constitution of Vojvodina, Article 26:

The use of the Latin script of the Serbian language in bodies and organisations of the autonomous province of Vojvodina shall be regulated by the Provincial Assembly decision and in accordance with the law

Even if you don’t like it, they can use Serbian/Latin if they want. It is a bit strange that I have to show you what is allowed in Serbia.

I am not saying what is allowed. Sure, Latin script is allowed. Other languages are allowed too, some even have status of official languages.

But, Serbian language and Cyril script on governmental web sites is required by Constitution and by the Law.

It is not point of what I like or not. I just pointed out that they do not obey not just Law, but Constitution and that you cannot be sure they follow the law in other matters too.

Thing is that it is not hard to offer both Cyril and Latin script on web site. It is just matter of good will, nothing more.

Lack of Cyril script on those sites is political message that majority of citizens of Serbia, who do use Serbian language and Cyril script are second grade citizens in their municipalities.

This forum should not be used for arguments like this.
I will state several facts and hopefully end this.
The Constitution of Serbia sais the official language is serbian and the cyrilic script. Other languages and scripts can be regulated by other laws.
This means that everyone should know the cyrilic (or you are illiterate) which is not the case. Some people don’t want to know it, or don’t want to use it :frowning:

Good luck in fighting for cyrilic…

Да се вратимо мало на тему, ево две локације за ‘хајкере’ и ‘бајкере’ на које сам налетео вероватно су доступне и на Wiki-ju али није на одмет поставити и овде. http://cycling.lonvia.de/en/, http://hikebikemap.de/.

Спомињали смо овде Геопортал који поред WMS сервера на http://www.geosrbija.rs/rga/default.aspx?gui=1&lang=1 има и TMS сервер на сајту геодетског завода http://www.geomreze.rgz.gov.rs/ (подразумевана подлога је Google maps а поред ортофото подлоге ту су и сви остали слојеви као на геопорталу). Иначе како мени изгледа, ситуација са геодетским податцима је донекле слична ситуацији Ordnance Survey, где поједине мапе и поред условно речено слободне доступности имају(имала) строга ограничења употрбе, што се наравно онда односи и на мапе и друге производе базиране на њима. Ово би онда значило да чак иако је већина података које ове мапе користе слбодно (један од њих нпр. називи улица) сама мапа је под Copyright-ом. Ово је укратко оно како сам ја размео садашњу ситуацију са доступним спољним изворима, и зато има одређене резерве када је у питању директно коришћење тих мапа. Иначе ценовник услуга РГЗ-а се може наћи овде http://www.rgz.gov.rs/web_preuzimanje_datotetka.asp?FileID=11.

Морате бити свесни тога да РГЗ само спроводи закон. РГЗ чак и да хоће све своје податке и мапе да дели џабе, он те не може. Скупштина Србије је донела закон који они морају да спроводе. Те паре, не иду у РГЗ и не постоје уопште паре којима РГЗ располаже. Те паре иду држави Србији тј. у државни трезор. РГЗ је пуки технички извршилац.

Е сад што се тиче праведности таквог система (што да плаћам податке кад већ плаћам порез) о томе се воде расправе и расправе. И то не само код нас, већ у целом свету. Систем у коме се подаци државног катастра деле џабе народу је по мени праведан. Али ипак, то је врло, врло редак систем. Знам да се примењује у САД и Новом Зеланду. У европским земљама се катастарски подаци и мапе државних институција скупо продају, иако народ и тамо плаћа порез. Ту има разлика од земље до земље; карактеристична је Велика Британија где се све плаћа по папреним ценама, без икаквог пардона.

Иначе, да се надовежем на оно што рече Пeђа: “RGZ got orto-photo imagery of all Serbia as a project to make maps available to everyone…”
РГЗ јесте добио ортофото снимке у оквиру CARDS пројекта али је у том пројекту и сам РГЗ уложио гигантски рад. Од тих снимака до ортофотоа који видите на интернету - далек је пут. Посебно, то важи за ортофото на Геомрежама (www.geomreze.rgz.gov.rs) који је одличног квалитета а који је креиран домаћим софтвером, направљеним специјално за ту сврху. Морате знати и то да је тај ортофото (на Геомрежама) репројектован на сферну меркаторову пројекцију и да је такав, потпуно компатибилан са OSM! Тако нешто изискује велики рад и завидно знање. Репројектовати око 7 билиона пиксела - мало је земаља које су извеле такав подухват; верујте ми, одлично знам шта говорим. Ако ћемо поштено, не би било праведно ни то, да тај труд остане ненаграђен а да пар фирми које држе монопол на гис-тржишту Србије, са пар линија кода унесу тај ортофото у своје апликације и продају општинама за око 50,000 евра.

There is no such thing as Constitution of Vojvodina?!
There is only one Constitution in this country - Constitution of Serbia.

They can use Croatian/Latin in municipalities with a formidable Croatian population and they can use Hungarian/Latin in municipalities with a Hungarian population. However, they are still obliged by the Constitution of Serbia to have the same text/web-content/… in Serbian language and Serbian/Cyrillic script. Even if they don’t like it!