Creating this topic in English as I am more comfortable with that language.
I am thinking of updating all the STF alpine huts and stations to standardise their name to the one that is found on STF’s website and add more information about them (e.g. capacity, elevation, opening “hours” (months), etc).
Before starting such endeavour I had a couple questions on the current state of things, which I hope some people here could shed light on:
Some nodes have DNT tags on them (example: Node: Akka Fjällstuga (339299835) | OpenStreetMap) or an affiliation tag to DNT (example: Node: Rogenstugan (501125368) | OpenStreetMap). As far as I understand those stations are operated by STF and have nothing to do with DNT so I am a little confused as to why those tags are present (and what the dnt:iid and dnt:discount even mean - there’s no wiki page I could find)
I am unsure how can I tag the availability of certain services in the hut, for example if there’s a shop, a sauna, a kitchen, etc?
I was thinking of normalising the names with what can be found on STF’s website (Fjällstuga - Svenska Turistföreningen), without the STF prefix (e.g. Rogen Fjällstuga).
Currently, the names that can be found are stugan, stugorna, , Fjällstuga , Fjällstugorna (and others) which is why I think it would be better for data consumers to normalise the name. Any opposition / different view?
DNT members get the same discount as STF members in Sweden. There are several routes across the border. You could tag it network=STF;DNT.
The DNT tags are likely there because some STF locations were imported several years ago based on DNT data. These locations show up on DNT maps at dnt.no and ut.no. I think it would be good to keep the dnt:iid=* tag.
For reference, here is tagging for the 4-6 various categories of DNT huts (and similar locations run by other organizations): Map_Features Overnattingshytter. In short:
Serviced huts: tourism=alpine_hut
Self service (with food supplies): tourism=wilderness_hut + provisions=yes
No service (no supplies): tourism=wilderness_hut
Open basic hut/emergency hut (no fireplace or no stove): amenity=shelter + shelter=basic_hut
First of all: Thanks for taking the effort.
I startet a similar task a while ago but as far as I remember I did not take the huts further south than Kvikkjokk and there are always things that can be done better…
Maybe you take a look at the huts south of Abisko (that is probably the area that has been mapped “best”) to get some inspiration for a standard and how to map the services.
I was a bit unsure how I should tag the huts: alpine_hut or wilderness_hut and chose alpine_hut even as this actually means that you should be able to get meals, the reason was that the huts are closed (except for the emergency room) off season which would (in my eyes) not be expected for a wilderness_hut (DNT huts are (mostly) open all year round).
From experience, standardization often means that a user, from behind his desk, values his data higher and therefore replaces data from survey and local knowledge with data that somewhat fullfills some persons desire that all similiar data must fit a certain form or look good in a list.
But I don’t say that this is such a case.
One example: To replace Rogenstugan with Rogen Fjällstuga when this sign is present at the place is not good.
If a user searches for the place he will probably type Rogenstugan since that seems to be what is is called. When I search for Rogenstugan on the Internet I get three times as many hits as on the name from STF’s website.
However, to add Rogen Fjällstuga as an alternative name can be a good thing. In that way both names are searchable and no local knowledge is deleted.
A manual reviewing process is needed when a name or alt_name is already present.
This name “normalisation” is either to change wrong data to correct data, or to change correct data to wrong data. If you have no way of verifying which of the two you are doing, then don’t.
Thanks for the input here! That’s an interesting discussion.
From experience, standardization often means that a user, from behind his desk, values his data higher
This name “normalisation” is either to change wrong data to correct data, or to change correct data to wrong data. If you have no way of verifying which of the two you are doing, then don’t.
I understand these points but from my understanding STF owns these places and their official names are used on the website. If tomorrow STF decides to rename Rogen Fjällstuga to “I love pancakes”, it’s their right to do so, and IMHO should become the name on maps.
If a user searches for the place he will probably type Rogenstugan since that seems to be what is is called. When I search for Rogenstugan on the Internet I get three times as many hits as on the name from STF’s website.
I would tend to disagree here. If a user with local knowledge search for it, then sure (but if they have local knowledge, would they search for it?). If a user that has just planned their trip based on STF website, I think they would rather type Rogen Fjällstuga since that’s what it’s called on the website they used for planning.
The reason I started this thread is precisely because I saw the cabin on STF website, typed it into my favorite OSM app (OrganicMaps)… and got 0 relevant hits (did you know about Rosenstrasse in Berlin? ).
With that said, it seems that the names they use on the website are maybe not that official considering the (nice) picture exhibited. I think adding an alt_name is a great suggestion to avoid altering with local knowledge.
Yes, but every local person would name it in another way (if we talk about Rogenstugan).
Also Rogen Fjällstuga is not a name that has a good flow in Swedish. It sounds translated or somewhat awkward.
We have the tag official_name that maybe could be used.
OSM has this “on the ground” rule. It is not always applicable, but it is a good indication what should have priority. For example regarding names, on a sign at the location, in this case.
I have never been to Rogenstugan. (The picture was stolen )
But I have come across the name from time to time during the years.
I did search for it yesterday in OSM to actuall have a look at the exact location.
I did not search for Rogen Fjällstuga.
I think both names should be added to benefit both someone without local knowledge and someone who has some time heard the name being mentioned.
alt_name or maybe official_name is suitable, in my opinion.
But care has to be taken not to just overwrite what is existing without thought.
Well…subjective opinion I think But @lodig has a point about local users saying something that differs from the actual name. Locals have their own names for lots of stuff and its quite selective which local names are used - and are useful to OSM. I think name and loc_name fit the situation quite well: Names - OpenStreetMap Wiki
It does complicate the matter when someone has made a sign using the local name - of course. But we have to be a bit pragmatic as well. As long as the name “Rogen” is present on this hut, you have to be pretty pedantic to complain about variations in the name. It’s going to be obvious that is the place - regardless of which name you found first. I would go with the name stated by the owner and treat the sign as a local name (and yes, if I was a local I would probably disagree, but… come on )
If DNT has a different name, then name:no can be used. And so on.
No it’s not.
We don’t eat Falun Korv. We don’t visit Sandviken Simhall. We are eating Falukorv and visits Sandvikens simhall.
How we write is mosly defined by rules and how we talk are based on old traditions.
I dare to guess that most of the STF staff would say Rogenstugan, but some IT-company responsible for their website without knowledge in Swedish made a pretty list of names on their website…
Anders has a very good point in beeing carefull in deciding which name to choose, and I totally agree with him that Rogenstuga (or which stuga ever) is to be chosen instead of (STF) Fjällstuga Rogen.
First a picture that could lead to thinking STF Fjällstuga xy could be good.
But I do not think that is all
(I can only upload on picture in a psting so these pictures follow in a own post)
support to chose xy-stuga or xy-stugorna (more on that further on).
The same if we take a look on Lantmäteriets maps, brandnew or very old, allways xy-stuga.
And that is also how the names are used out in the mountains, if you not just talk about the name of the place.
About stuga or stugorna, well it is hut or huts, so (in my eyes) it is correct to use stugorna on places where there is more than one hut for guests and stuga on places with just one hut for guests. Unfortunately Läntmäteriet (And probably as a follow up Länsstyrelsen on the signposts) has this not completely correct on its maps. Unna Allakas has just one hut for guests but is named as if there were several huts (Maybe they counted the wardens hut (Stugvärdsstugan) as well), while Vistas, which has two huts for guests is named like just one hut.
Personally I would first use the names that are to be found on Lantmäteriets maps as these are the names that are also found on the signposts and add the names that are used of STF (for at least 20 years now) as an alternativ name.
To sum this up, I think adding STF’s names from the website as alt_name is a good compromise. It will allow both local name/Lantmäteriets name to show on the map, and allow users browsing STF’s homepage to find the cabins in OSM.
I would be happy to see @lodig add this. Just don’t overwrite any existing alt_names without thought.
Is anyone against this solution?
I would also like to add that I’m glad for the response from @lodig. It is far too few people that would like to import something that are able to see the eventual problem this can cause. Usually they just stare at their data source and are unable to see any further than that.
Thanks everyone for your input, I am glad I created this thread because I am learning quite a lot of things (Falun korv → Falukorv )!
Considering the material that was posted (signs, Läntmateriet maps, etc), I agree it makes more sense to keep the name ‘as is’ and assume they are correct (even though there’s some differences between stuga vs stugorna. I assume buildings come and go but names are here to stay); and add an alt_name where possible that uses STF’s website naming scheme.
I may ping STF as well to ask them what’s up because IF they wanted to have their stations be named XYZ Fjällstuga, they should probably replace the local signs as well. Otherwise, they could also update their website so it matches the ‘on the ground’ reality.
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