Chciałbym pochwalić się swym pomysłem na zwiększenie przydatności i uatrakcyjnienie map
Tyle na wstępie. Zanim rozwinę temat to krótko napisze o sobie
Mapuję już prawie 2 lata czysto amatorsko na podstawie zebranych śladów GPS. Staram się robić najrzetelniej jak potrafię. prawie każdą dokonaną zmianę poprzedzając wizją lokalną. Najbardziej lubię mapować poz terenem zabudowanym ścieżki , drogi leśne i szlaki . Dodając wszelkiego rodzaju punkty orientacyjne charakterystyczne dla map topograficznych. Jeśli informację o jakimkolwiek obiekcie lub atrakcji turystycznej można znaleźć na necie to dodaję link do strony www , Wikipedii a jeszcze lepiej do filmu na You Tube. Chciałbym aby OSM było dokładniejsze od map topograficznych i o wiele atrakcyjniejsze od najbardziej popularnych map google.
W terenie korzystam z aplikacji Maps.me OSMand jest odrobinę za “ciężki” wolę wersję uproszczoną .
Uważam że mapowanie polegające na podlinkowaniu wszelkich dostępnych informacji o miejscu powinno przede wszystkim służyć w praktyce turyście na szlaku zawierając odnośnik do strony www z informacją o obiekcie , zdjęcia atrakcji turystycznej lub nawet odnośnik do video przewodnika co w przypadku miejsc historycznych jest bardzo przydatnym dodatkiem.
Aby nie przedłużać podam klika przykładów moich edycji :
Kilka przedostatnich edycji zrobiłem tylko na podstawie obejrzanych filmów na YT o ciekawych miejscach w Polsce https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/53922413 wybierając te najbardziej przydatne merytorycznie z narracją autora opisującego historię miejsca
W końcu można wykorzystać różnego rodzaju blogi podróżnicze . W tym przykładzie stary kamienny drogowskaz koło Przybymierza: http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/5142967188 Cały blog do którego dałem link na OSM jest o tyle wartościowy że zawiera wiele podobnych obiektów z opisem i podanymi współrzędnymi geograficznymi. A o samym obiekcie w terenie dowiedzieć czegoś więcej nie sposób. Nawet gotykiem pisane napisy w języku niemieckim są mało czytelne. Co najważniejsze autor nie miał nic przeciwko temu aby wykorzystywać jego pracę do wzbogacania map i napisał mi taką odpowiedź :
“Witam. Dziękuję za wiadomość, nie mam nic przeciwko ‘linkowaniu’ moich materiałów np do OSM. Co do zaangażowania samemu w edycję OSM - może kiedys się zmobilizuję ? Pozdrawiam”
No i już ostatni przykład. Przypadkiem trafiłem na skrytkę geocachingu również dodałem informacje o niej do mapy. Nie miałem zielonego pojęcia jak to otagować no i niestety jest to widoczne na mapie tylko w trybie edycji a szkoda bo skrytka posiada oficjalną stronę internetową na której są podane informacje o otaczających tajemniczych obiektach http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/5128540627
For the benefit of those that can not read the Polish language, here is the Google translation to English:
Z myślą o tych, którzy nie potrafią czytać języka polskiego, oto tłumaczenie Google na język angielski:
Hello all mappers very warmly. smile
I would like to boast of your idea to increase the usefulness and make the map more attractive
So much at the beginning. Before developing the subject, it will briefly describe itself
I have been mapping for almost 2 years purely amateur based on the collected GPS tracks. I try to do as honestly as I can. almost every change made before the local vision. I like to map off the built-up paths, forest roads and trails. Adding all sorts of landmarks specific to topographic maps. If you have any information about any of the facilities or tourist attractions you can find on the Net, I will add a link to the website, Wikipedia and even better to the movie on You Tube. I would like OSM to be more accurate than topographic maps and much more attractive than most popular google maps.
On the field I use Maps.me application OSMand is a bit too “heavy” will prefer the simplified version.
I think that the mapping of all available information about the place should primarily serve the tourist on the trail, including a link to the website with information about the object, photos of the tourist attraction or even a link to the video guide as in the case of historical sites is a very useful addition.
In order not to prolong, I give some examples of my edits:
Presentation how it works in practice on the mobile app https://youtu.be/NhHVryVie8M (please see the description under the video)
I have only made a couple of penultimate editions based on the videos I watched on YT about interesting places in Poland https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/53922413 choosing the most useful content with narrative author describing the place’s history.
You can also use more and more drones as in this example, where outside the link to the press article under the Url tag found a better version of Googlowy Street view big_smile https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/52940 … 6 / 15.42708
In the end, you can use various types of travel blogs. In this example, an old stone signpost near the intersection: http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/5142967188 The entire blog I gave a link to OSM is so valuable that it contains many similar objects with description and given geographic coordinates. And about the object itself in the field to find out something more no way. Even gothic inscriptions written in German are not readable. Most importantly, the author did not mind using his work to enrich maps and wrote me such an answer:
"Hi, thank you for the message, I have nothing against ‘linking’ my content to the OSM.As for engaging myself in editing OSM - maybe I will mobilize one day?
And the last example. By accident I hit the lock of geocaching also added information about her to the map. I had no idea how to tag this hmm Unfortunately, this is only visible on the map in edit mode and a shame because the cache has an official website that gives information about surrounding mysterious objects http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/5128540627
Open Street Maps is not for any particular purpose. It has many purposes besides touring cyclists. It is a database of map data from which data can be selected. Then, with a separate renderer (maker or presenter) and styling data, the map you desire can be generated.
Open Street Maps is not to be manipulated to trick a particular renderer (maker or presenter) of maps to achieve your purposes. Rather you need to learn how to manipulate the renderer to render the map you want. Do not map to the renderer!
Open Street Maps are multi-language. The default language is Europe-centric English; but, names and web link tags, for example, can have language subtags to allow multiple language descriptions of the same entity.
By all means, use the render you prefer. Recognize that others might prefer or need a heavier map.
Open Street Maps nie służy żadnemu konkretnemu celowi. Ma wiele celów poza turystycznymi rowerzystami. Jest to baza danych map, z której można wybierać dane. Następnie, z oddzielnym rendererem (producentem lub prezenterem) i danymi dotyczącymi stylizacji, można wygenerować mapę, której pragniesz.
Nie wolno manipulować mapami ulic otwartych, aby oszukać konkretny renderer (twórca lub prezenter) map, aby osiągnąć swoje cele. Raczej musisz nauczyć się manipulować rendererem, aby renderować mapę, którą chcesz. Nie mapuj do renderera!
Mapy ulic otwartych są wielojęzyczne. Domyślnym językiem jest angielski, skoncentrowany na Europie; ale na przykład nazwy i znaczniki linków do stron internetowych mogą zawierać podtagi języka, umożliwiające wyświetlanie wielu opisów tego samego obiektu.
Za wszelką cenę, użyj renderowania, który wolisz. Rozpoznaj, że inni mogą preferować lub potrzebować cięższej mapy.
Open Street Maps ist nicht für einen bestimmten Zweck bestimmt. Es hat viele Zwecke neben Tourenradfahrer. Es ist eine Datenbank mit Kartendaten, aus denen Daten ausgewählt werden können. Mit einem separaten Renderer (Maker oder Moderator) und Styling-Daten kann dann die gewünschte Map generiert werden.
Open Street Maps darf nicht manipuliert werden, um einen bestimmten Renderer (Hersteller oder Moderator) von Karten auszutricksen, um Ihre Ziele zu erreichen. Vielmehr müssen Sie lernen, wie Sie den Renderer manipulieren können, um die gewünschte Map zu rendern. Ordne sie nicht dem Renderer zu!
Open Street Maps sind mehrsprachig. Die Standardsprache ist Europa-zentriertes Englisch; Namen und Weblink-Tags können jedoch beispielsweise Sprachkennungen enthalten, um mehrere Sprachbeschreibungen derselben Entität zu ermöglichen.
Verwenden Sie auf jeden Fall den von Ihnen bevorzugten Render. Erkenne, dass andere vielleicht eine schwerere Karte bevorzugen oder benötigen.
Open Street Maps не предназначены для какой-либо конкретной цели. У этого есть много целей помимо туристических велосипедистов. Это база данных данных карты, из которой можно выбрать данные. Затем, с отдельным рендерером (создателем или презентатором) и данными моделирования, желаемая карта может быть сгенерирована.
Open Street Maps не следует манипулировать, чтобы обмануть конкретного рендерера (производителя или ведущего) карт для достижения ваших целей. Скорее вам нужно научиться манипулировать рендерером, чтобы отобразить нужную вам карту. Не привязывайтесь к рендереру!
Open Street Maps - многоязычные. Язык по умолчанию - английский, ориентированный на Европу; но, например, имена и теги веб-ссылок могут иметь языковые; но, например, имена и теги веб-ссылок могут иметь языковые идентификаторы, позволяющие описать несколько языков одного и того же объекта.
В любом случае используйте рендер, который вы предпочитаете. Признайте, что другие могут предпочесть или нуждаться в более тяжелой карте.
The default language for names and descriptions is the normal language for sign posts in the the country being mapped. The default of UK English only applies to names of tags and keyword values. I would also expect default web links to point to either a web site that negotiates language with the browser (very rare), or to the one in the language for the country.
Also, although Google Translate hasn’t done a good job, I’m concerned that YouTube may have been used as a source for mapping.
This implies that major streets at least should have international names as well as the local common name and the preferred international name would be the English name. But, by all means, add any other languages that seem pertinent and do not be surprised if others are added. Then, people can choose in their map rendering which language or language combinations to use.
km2bp said “Nawet gotykiem pisane napisy w języku niemieckim są mało czytelne.” Wherein, the person implied that the German language is unintelligible. Therefore, a Polish version of the signage was desirable.
I regret that some find it offensive that I use Google translate for communication. Presently, it is the best tool readily at my hand.
Alternative languages (your phrase) ought to be used improve communications. Perhaps, the location in question is visited by world tourists often. In which case, the use of many language may be appropriate. The “Main Street” example, I took from personal experience, a British tourist asked me where High Street was. After I learned that he was wanting to go shopping for souvenirs, I told him that what he wanted was Main Street; hence, my (poor) example.
On the other hand, the default language of Open Street is some variety of English. When someone posts in another language, I believe it is a good idea to add a translation to some form of English because of that. I do not feel that posting in other languages is wrong.
I wasn’t complaining about your use of Google Translate, just saying that Google Translate itself was garbling the translation to the point were I wasn’t sure of the exact meaning. In particular there were references to YouTube and to Google maps that were not clear.
OSM meta data is based on English. The meta data has to be understood by machines. Names should reflect only the names actually used in the real world as names.
Your example of High Street as where the main shops are found is actually meta data. At the moment, there is no OSM tag for high streets; one needs to use the landuse of the surrounding area and/or the mapping of individual shops. However, if that was felt desirable, there would need to be something like a high_street=yes tag, which would be named in British English.
If you want a tourist map or router to find the main shopping street, for tourists who don’t know the local language, it is the renderer that should infer the pseudo name High Streeet. Applying translations that don’t exist on the ground is just another example of tagging for the renderer.
These days, a name of High Street, in older English towns, may not even mean a shopping street; it may simply be historical. It may also be a shopping street, but no longer the main one. Although in the following example, the road in question is still a shopping street, if a German tourist in the West End of London, asked for HauptStrasse, with your system of translation of names, they would probably want Oxford Street, but the best match would be Marylebone High Street.
To expand on that, the high street and the main street are sometimes used as metonyms for the main business street. However, High Street and Main Street are names of actual streets that may once have been the main business street but no longer are. OverThere is confusing a description (it’s the main business street) with a name (it’s called Main Street).
If I were looking for a street with lots of shops on it, I’d find it more useful if the map displayed the shops rather than looking for a street called High Street (which may or may not be the main business street). Even more useful is if the map tells me the names of the shops and/or indicates what they sell rather than me hoping the kind of shop I’m looking for happens to be on a street which was named High Street long before urban redevelopment moved most of the shops elsewhere.
And to expand on that, it’s a silly idea to label something “High Street” (because of the shops) if it is not called High Street. Especially if the town has another street which is actually called High Street. Even more so if we are to take a street that isn’t called High Street and label it with multinational equivalents of “High Street.” What I’d want most on a map if I visited a foreign country is that the street names it displays matches the local signage so I can compare the two should I want to make sure I really am where I think I am.
Yes, the British tourist may have speaking at the meta-level asking for a district with a variety of small shops. The dialectic difference is what caused the difficulty until I realized that the American translation at the meta level, then directing him to the correct place was easy – he was already very close. Yes, I myself called my example poor. In almost all American towns, if they have a main street at all, then historically, it was a main street for shopping and commerce near its founding. In a surprisingly short time, the shopping district may have moved elsewhere in town, sometimes never to return. If the British tourist had said Main Street instead and I know that that town didn’t have a Main Street by that name, then I would asked directly about shopping and what class of stores he desired and directed him accordingly. But, I tripped over the High Street reference.
I am in firm agreement with the high_street=yes suggestion including that choice over main_street and the renderer could supply appropriate translations. If the locals have other preferred translations as high_street:en=“Main Street” or high_street:en=“Shopping District”. Yes, this would become another of my Eurocentric English examples. I am tempted to write a wiki page providing translation of tags or tag_values (motorway_link vs limited_access_ramp) that are almost meaningless to most Americans.
Also, I had no major difficulty with the Google translation of the Polish original partly due to having worked in a multi-lingual environment and dealing with fractured English often and by having a minor fluency with the Russian and German languages, some of the constructions were familiar.
Lastly, it is quite clear from the OSM wiki that the name= value should be the local name in the local script and I never argued with that! If other names are provided at all, then int_name= value should be a commonly used by foreigners name for the entity (street, area, etc). The language tagged names would and should be used only to supply locally preferred translation to those languages as assistance to a renderer. The renderer would have to chose to use them.
Finally, another example drawn from personal experience (I have been to all three places), the Выставка достижений народного хозяйства (ВДНХ) and the Мемориальный музей космонавтики are adjacent to each other across the Проспект Мира from Гостиница «Космос». For all four of those names, small signs in English could be found with only minor difficulty (in the case of the hotel with no difficulty at all, that was on the building in letters just as large as the Cyrillic): Exhibition of Achievements of National Economy (VDNkh), the Memorial Museum of Cosmonautics, Peace Prospect and Hotel Cosmos. I would have no trouble using the English translations as the name:en= values and would not object to them be the int_name= values as well.
It’s not quite that straightforward. Nothing ever is.
Take, for example, Wales. Local signage may give a street name in English, Welsh, or both. One subset of the locals may use the Welsh name, irrespective of what the signage says; another subset may use the English name, irrespective of what the signage says. A street may be signed “Priory Street” at one end and “Stryd y Priordy” at the other end.
I don’t see the international name as being particularly useful to anybody. Which language do you propose using in an international name? English is a common language. So is Mandarin. How about Esperanto? Or Bolak, Mundolinco, Noval, Sona, or any of the other International Auxiliary Languages that are alternatives to Esperanto? Oh, you want it to be the language commonly used by foreigners for that street. Which set of which foreigners? And why would they have a name for a street they’ve never visited in some obscure part of the world?
Oh, you’re not talking about streets, where local signage is all that is important. So what are you talking about? Shops? I doubt there is a universal name “foreigners” (they’re still not a homogeneous set) use to mean “shop,” let alone a particular type of shop. Or did you mean there’s an international name for Budgens (a British supermarket chain that was just taken over by Tesco)? Again, signage is what matters.
As for the renderer handling all these languages, Good. Luck. With. That. Most renderers produce tiles in a single language and pretty much show only names on signage. Yes, you can query an objject and get a list of its tags (not very user-friendly in mapnik, especially with the changeset details at the beginning rather than the end), so could see other languages that way. Having browser-negotiation decide which language to use on a tileset would potentially require a lot more tiles and hence a lot more computation. And wouldn’t be very useful. If the map says Приоратская улица (assuming google translate did a good job) will that help a Russian confirm that he or she is in the right place when the signage says Stryd y Priordy or Priory Street?
Maybe I’m missing something important in your suggestions, but they don’t make a lot of sense to me.
Seems feasible. iD does something along those lines already. Or at least it seems to: hover over a label and it obligingly hides itself. You don’t need the objects themselves to be dynamic, as they are in iD. In fact you could pre-render everything that’s currently in a tile apart from the labels and handle those dynamically.
I’m not yet convinced this is particularly useful, though. About the only case I can think of is where an object doesn’t have an icon defined for it, so you can’t see what it is without looking at the tagging (think swim-wear shop, or charity shop, or funeral director, or travel shop). But I think that for cases like that, more icons would be a better solution (they internationalize better).
That said, being able to hover over an object to get more details would be handy. Like shops where labels don’t show even at maximum zoom because they’re too small and crowded together for the renderer to apply labels. This would be a fairly natural extension of having dynamic labels. Having to click on “Query features” then click on the object, then select the right object from the list of nearby objects is tedious. And confusing for ordinary users because the changeset details are at the top of the returned info, not the bottom. Then again, OSM’s use of mapnik is as a technology demonstrator and for the benefit of mappers - itcouldn’t handle high volume usage from ordinary users, so there’s a disincentive to improve it in that way.
OSM obviously has chosen Eurocentric (it is not exactly British English) as its lingua franca. Therefore, using English in the int_name= field would appear to be reasonable. At Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory and at AT&T Bell Laboratories Indian Hill, I heard several languages used as lingua franca; but, by far, English was the most common. When I asked scientists with world experience what lingua francas they had encountered elsewhere, they said English was the most common, followed by the most common language in the countries where they are located (e.g., French at CERN and Mandrin at IHEP in Beijing, China) and followed by French, German, Italian and Russian.
On the topic of machine translation, in 1954, a Los Angles Times reporter reported on an experiment in machine translation from English to Russian and back: out of sight, out of mind became invisibility, insane. The issue exists wherever, whenever or however translation is attempted.
You have yet to convince me that we need an international name as the value for any particular type of tag. Not even if I assume that you choose English as that international language.
What I need most on a map is local signage. Sure, if I have an active map rather than a printout, and my GPS is working and enabled, and there aren’t highrises blocking the GPS signal, even that is superfluous. But as a sanity check and for times when GPS is giving problems, or there’s a confusing junction and GPS isn’t accurate enough for me to be sure, local signage is a must. An international name would be of no use to me at all. A guide to phonetic pronunciation might help so I can ask a local, but most people don’t understand IPA, so wouldn’t be able to read the name to a local anyway. Pointing to a name on the map written in the local language, however, works.
What I need next on a map is an indication of what things are. Like whether something is a clothes shop or a funeral director. And since that type of tagging already uses semi-British English for values, and that was your first choice of lingua franca, the problem is already solved. And, since there are a limited number of recognized types of object, appropriate translations can be made once, by the community, rather than each mapper adding add hoc translations for the few or more languages he or she may know. But a better way would simply be to have icons for types of object, such as funeral director, that don’t currently have them (and improved icons for things such as fire stations which look like stores for flammable chemicals or fire hazards).
Maybe I’m still missing something, but I don’t see any practical, useful purpose to your proposal. If you could provide me with a concrete example maybe that would convince me. At the moment it seems to me that you have a solution in search of a problem.
I think you are putting too much weight on int_name. I think it is considered a bit controversial whether it should be used at all, but to the extent it exists, the wiki suggests using language specific names instead, and points out that it is not necessarily in English.
The problem with int_name is exactly that there is a danger of assuming that consumers use a particular language, and alphabet.
Of course, name:en is often not pure English, either, e.g. 天安门广场 is Tiananmen Square, not Great Square of the Gate of Heavenly Peace. On the other hand, some language variants seem to be closer to the latter (although they generally miss out the “gate”). It doesn’t have an int_name and giving it one would tend to favour one language with limited benefit to users of other languages.
天 is heaven
安 is peace
门 is gate
广 is broad
场 is something like place or square.
There are many tags that already exist, often because some mapper just made a tag up with no rhyme or reason.
There are tags that are defined but deprecated. They seemed like a good idea when they were invented but in practise they are problematic. The OSM community (at least the subset of it which edits the wiki pages) have made it clear that you should consider not using an international name but use language-specific names instead.
As far as I can see, you’re fixated on the fact that this tag exists (arguably it shouldn’t) so you’re determined to force it on people who see no need for it. Good. Luck. With. That. Unless you can come up with an actual reason for using it, or a use-case where it makes sense, the OSM community will just ignore you. Yeah, the tag exists and you found it, but unless you can convince people there’s a good reason to use it, they won’t use it.
I invite you, once again to give me a concrete example where this makes sense. Where it provides a necessary feature that could not be achieved in other ways. Until you can do that, nobody will use it in the way you seem to want them to. Make a case for it or get off the pot.
Whilst defined, its very definition discourages its use. I think it was based on an assumption that there is a name universally used outside of the country itself, but that isn’t a safe assumption.
Incidentally, I thought about IPA and came to the same conclusion, that showing the name in the language of the country, or of your guide, is a better option. As well as IPA not being well known to most people, the IPA you see in dictionaries is generally simplified, based on the phonetics of the language. IPA sufficient to get someone not trained in the phonetics of the language would need to have a level of detail that only phonetics researchers would normally use.
Where https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Multilingual_names says anything about int_name, it would seem to really mean the Latin alphabet transliteration of the name, although it is not clear whether this means the official one for the country or the UK English phonetics one.