We see them here quite often… traffic signals and than a solid stop line or give_way right at the crossing. Seen a few sub-signed and ignored for tagging but now is the time. This traffic signal with stop sign below is accompanied with the text saying that if the lights are off or blinking/flashing you have to stop (at the mark). Thought I’d seen a topic touching on this but could not retrace. TagInfo had just one entry of stop:conditional for bicycle so cooked up this
stop:backward:conditional=yes @ “con semaforo spento o lampeggiante”
All traffic light installations in the Netherlands have give-way sign’s so that also if the traffic lights are not working which is typically very infrequent, no additional sign to explain this.
Does the traffic signal regularly turn off or go into a flashing mode, or is the signage there just to remind a motorist what to do in the event of the lights being off or flashing? E.g. a power or controls failure?
If it’s the latter case I wouldn’t bother attempting to map this. We have the same traffic rules here, that a non-functional traffic signal and/or a flashing red must be treated like a stop sign. I don’t think we should attempt to map these sorts of traffic rules; it would be like adding tags explaining to ‘go’ when the light is green.
If the signals are regularly deactivated or set to flashing mode, for instance at night when traffic is much lighter, then it’s definitely worth tagging traffic_signals:operating_times=*.
where the stop or yield only applies when the signal is off or flashing. Makes sense to explore a *:conditional tag. Maybe something like highway=stop + condition=signal_off or similar? Curious how others are tagging this too.
I’ve used emergency:traffic_sign (example: Node: 9591520473 | OpenStreetMap). Someone suggested this tag to me and it seems logical (traffic signals which are not working is an emergency given the local traffic and the drivers’ etiquette ).
emergency:traffic_sign= won’t semantically correct, as traffic_sign= is a physical feature that has its meaning expressed by its content, eg traffic_sign=XY:1,100 when 1 and 100 are stop and the condition. Considered with emergency:*= , that would mean the sign only exists in contingency situations. Eg traffic_sign:conditional= shouldn’t be used either, unless there’s really a sign that’s only shown during some condition.
It would be highway=traffic_signals + emergency:highway=stop , similar to the existing intended amenity= + emergency:amenity=
The European examples don’t have all-way stop, or give-way. There would be a diamond-signed priority side chosen, and the give-way side. traffic_signals:*= was already suggestd to use *:service_times= before. No need to invent another *:operating_times= . Talk:Tag:highway=traffic signals - OpenStreetMap Wiki
If “the European examples … would [have] a diamond-signed priority side, and give-way side”: what the hell is the stop sign in SekeRob’s opening post for then? Your remark makes no sense.
With respect to traffic_signals:operating_times=* vs. traffic_signals:service_times=*: don’t look at me, I didn’t “invent” anything with respect to these, I just linked to a wiki page. Don’t shoot the messenger.
I said not “all-way stop, or give-way”, and it’s about your unsigned legal default. You don’t have to nit-pick for not writing “give-way / stop” every time, and calling that non-sense.
There are many wiki articles that aren’t that nicely documented as well. Context is missing. traffic_signals:operating_times= was mostly mass added a long time ago in 2017, not recently discussed. It’s closer to documenting someone or a few users’ idea, who didn’t draft a proposal to self-document.
Are you saying the answer to my earlier question—“Does the traffic signal regularly turn off or go into a flashing mode, or is the signage there just to remind a motorist what to do in the event of the lights being off or flashing?”—is: yes, the traffic signal in this case would regularly (by design) turn off or go into flashing mode, and the signage is there to instruct the motorists what to do as a specific exemption to the default rules of the road?
Furthermore, you’re saying the default rules of the road would be that a priority yellow diamond sign would be posted at the signals, so that in the event of the signal lights failing motorists would follow that priority rule and other directions would give way?
So if the traffic lights are functioning normally, you would summarily ignore the priority/give way signage…?
I have to agree with @emvee, these signs are the default in many European countries and most of them don’t have any additional explanation like the one in the first post.
I don’t think they deserve a complicated conditional tag - a simple traffic_sign tag on the traffic_lights node should be sufficient. We don’t have to copy facts (“only valid when traffic lights are off”) that are regulated country-wide by law into each and every object in OSM.
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