הוויקי הישראלי מתייחס בקצרה לטיפול בשמות בישראל עם התייחסות גם לשמות במספר שפות. גם בוויקי העולמי יש פרק שמתייחס לרב-לשוניות של שמות ב “Israel/Palestine”. הפרק בדף העולמי ארוך ומפורט יותר, אבל יש בו גם מספר בעיות:
הפרק נכתב ללא התיעצות עם הקהילה המקומית וללא קשר לדף הוויקי של ישראל
הפרק כורך את הכללים של ישראל עם כללים לגבי Palestine. זה בזמן שאין התייחסות לנושא בדף של Palestine
הפרק כולל התייחסויות פוליטיות והיסטוריות שלא קשורות לנושא ובוודאי לא מייצגות את הציבור הישראלי.
יש הרבה הגיון בהנחיות האנגלית החל מ-As for the English name tag.
פחות הבנתי למה חשוב להתעכב על עניין הגרש (לא חושב שצריך גם ג'סר א זרקה וגם גסר א זרקה. ולדעתי מספיק הראשון.
יש הגיון ב-چ and ڤ ב-transliteration לערבית, אבל אני תוהה אילו חוקי transliteration אחרים יש שלא נאמרו, ותוהה אם זה ב-scope של הדף.
אני מציע עריכה פשוטה לוויקי שלנו, תחת נקודת ה-translation.
For Hebrew/Arabic, if both a native name and a name transliterated from the other language are in use, use your judgement, bearing the following rules of thumb in mind.
Generally, prefer the native name in name:lang, and the transliterated name in alt_name:lang, especially if the former is the preferred name for the language’s speakers.
if the native name is archaic, historic, or not in common use, it may be more suitable to put the transliterated name in name:lang, and the native name in old_name:lang or alt_name:lang.
ואז לשלב את מה שנכתב על האנגלית בסוף, או במלואו או בנוסח קצת יותר מקוצר.
מציע שהדף העולמי פשוט יקשר לדף שלנו. פחות נוח לי עם duplicates והם מסתעפים כפי שקרה פה…
משהו בסגנון:
Currently, the PL wiki has no explicit naming guidelines. The IL Wiki has naming guidelines applicable to Israel and West bank Area C, which take bilingual considerations into account and handle Arabic/Hebrew symmetrically.
English translation (From the auto-translation with slight changes):
Initial thoughts after a few more readings:
There is a lot of logic in the English guidelines starting fromAs for the English name tag.
I didn’t understand why it’s important to dwell on the issue of the Geresh (I don’t think it’s necessary to haveגסר א זרקה bothג'סר א זרקה, and I think the former is sufficient).
There is logic in transliterationچ and ڤ into Arabic, but I wonder what other transliteration rules there are that have not been said, and I think transliteration instructions are out of scope the page.
I suggest a simple edit to our wiki page, under the translation point.
For Hebrew/Arabic, if both a native name and a name transliterated from the other language are in use, use your judgement, bearing the following rules of thumb in mind.
Generally, prefer the native name in name:lang, and the transliterated name in alt_name:lang, especially if the former is the preferred name for the language’s speakers.
if the native name is archaic, historic, or not in common use, it may be more suitable to put the transliterated name in name:lang, and the native name in old_name:lang or alt_name:lang.
And then incorporate what was written about English at the end, either in full or in a slightly shorter version.
I suggest that the global page simply link to our page. I’m uncomfortable with duplicates and they diverge as can be seen here…
Something along the lines of:
Currently, the PL wiki has no explicit naming guidelines. The IL Wiki has naming guidelines applicable to Israel and West bank Area C, which take bilingual considerations into account and handle Arabic/Hebrew symmetrically.
Regarding the name:en tag, If there are well known and accepted names, commonly used by English speakers, (e.g. Hebron), use that. Otherwise, use the official State of Israel names for areas within the 1948 borders, and for Israeli settlements in the west bank, and use the official Palestinian Authority English name for Palestinian localities.
For the record, I’ve notified the original user via a private OSM message, and also wrote about the planned change in the multilingual talk page. I’ll wait for more input and think about this for a while before making any changes.
I’ve updated the naming guidelines in The IL wiki. Revision Link.
Awaiting feedback. If there’s no feedback for a while, I’ll go ahead and also update the Global naming page as proposed in previous posts.
Also, I am looking for a good example for the following section. Help appreciated:
If the native name is archaic, historic, or not in common use, it may be more suitable to put the transliterated name in name:lang=, and the native name in old_name:lang= or alt_name:lang=*
The one example I have in mind is Tel Aviv but I need a simpler, more representative one. In Arabic, the Hebrew-to-Arabic transliteration “Tel Abib/تل ابيب” is ubiquitous used and the “native name” “Tel el Rabea/تل الربيع” is obscure. This example is not ideal:
The nearby city of Jaffe had been merged with Tel aviv and the official name is “Tel-Aviv Jaffe”, making the example bulky and atypical (One part of the Arabic name is transliterated and one is native).
The “native name” is actually a modern translation in retrospect of “Tel Aviv” and isn’t historic. It is implicitly political and we are avoiding politics.
Just a quick question regarding the Arabic transliteration: do we need to reflect the lack of l pronunciation with the sun consonants?
Which means وادي البستان should become Wadi Al-bustan and in Hebrew ואדי אלבוסתאן (with a space/minus/maqqaf after אל or not?).
But in a case such as وادي الربيع the direct transliteration should be Wadi A-rabi’ (A-rabi3) and in Hebrew ואדי א-רביע, because in this case it’s a sun consonant so the l is silent.
Do we have a formal guide for that?
Sorry for hijacking the post, I don’t mind separating that into a different post.
Clarification: I have many local examples but I was looking for a more recognizable example.
Here’s an example:
Zekhron Yakov/זכרון יעקב/زخرون 's native Arabic name is Zomarin/זמרין/زمارين. But very few Arabs would call it by that name today or even recognize it. So putting this at name:ar actually makes the map less readable and the place unrecognizable for many Arabic speakers, and it belongs to old_name:ar or alt_name:ar.
I have now changed if both a native name and a name transliterated from the other language are in use to if both a native name and a name transliterated from the other language exist, this was a minor error on my part which made the higher level bullet point somewhat contradict its child section (which we’re discussing now).