It is required to resolve the issue of naming.
Vendindg machine does not require the name and brand, but it does not hurt (there are SuperRich networks etc).
What to do with small fuel stations other than brand (esso, pt, ppt, shell, etc)?
There are independent stations without a name or a little-known name (not a brand). Now I often see how some of them have a name and/or brand as “independent”.
A decision is required - which name and/or which brand to indicate in such cases.
P.S. I mark the dots while riding a motorcycle, so I don’t have the opportunity to record the brand. Often a large station created by me does not have the correct name. Then I write “brand”. Or is it better to leave it empty?
I tagged many of these fuel stations with operator=independent because regardless of the particular brand of petrol they sell, the major fuel companies are not at all involved with running the facility. There’s really no need for an operator tag but I used it for the sake of completeness and as another way to set them apart from normal, full-service stations.
@julcnx:
I have no objection to your proposed tagging scenario, with one exception. Drummed fuel is never self service. The seller is always needed to dispense the fuel. I have never seen a self service drummed fuel shop.
In addition, I certainly would not classify them as ameniity=fuel for reasons already endlessly discussed.
Yes, off the radar as spending my summer in the UK, & busy mapping Wales and its constantly changing speed limits. … back to Thai next month.
Julian, I appreciate your efforts in trying to bring things to a standard, and where things are relatively inconsequential, I don’t see the need to make waves.
However with an issue such as this, it does irk when a tagging change to something not widely used, is considered. I have been mapping rural stations for years (as thats where I ride). Fuel stops are planned on both Garmin & OSMand, and to see these locations disappear because of this change, does negate a lot of my efforts.
However I see you listening, so as a minimum I would like to see all vending machines, still carry the amenity=fuel top level tag.
I feel the “dispensed from drums shops” should too, but would concede, if the majority feel that way.
I agree that bottle shops do not need the amenity=fuel tag… but have fun constantly undoing the well intended backpackers on Samui and the like, constantly adding nodes via maps.me at every point they see what looks like a old whiskey bottle filled with pee, sitting on a rusty coca cola stand !
Russ, I appreciate your input, but while you get the chance to disconnect from Thailand for many months a year, some new mapper @pLoskutov, who has done some amazing contributions in northern Thailand while bike touring, had decided to convert and map all drummed fuel shops, vending machines and independent gas station on his way as amenity=vending_machine, so there was urgency to document the different categories of dispensing fuel points and figure out some unique way to differentiate them.
I hear you, and I will assume you have no objections that these vending machines will be extended with additional official tags (self_service=yes, automated=yes) to distinguish them from other categories.
Completely agree, and I don’t feel this needs to be covered here yet as these will slowly disappear.
We’ve already discussed why both vending machines and drummed fuel shops (excluding bottled stands) might not fit perfectly under the amenity=fuel tag due to factors like fuel storage capacity and available fuel types.
However, motorcycles rely on both of these options equally, and as @Russ_McD pointed out, Garmin/OsmAnd navigation systems currently only recognize points tagged as amenity=fuel. Moreover, some of these points offer diesel, making them valuable for pickup trucks.
So, I’m curious to understand how having these points visible on maps personally affects you, and what’s driving your strong desire to see them categorized differently?
Makes sense, but they wouldn’t exactly fall into the “full service” category either, would they? They do hand you the nozzle, but you still have to handle it yourself and communicate with the seller if you need to stop or add more.
So, how about we tag these as self_service=no + full_service=no? Keep in mind, we need distinct sub-tags to set them apart from traditional gas stations.
Keep in mind that the official definitions for these tags are not set in stone:
" There are not agreed upon tags for different levels of service, but both self_service=yes/no and full_service=yes/no and automated=yes/no have been used. Note that a gas station can be both self serve and full serve. The expectation for the default values of self_serivce and full_service will probably vary greatly from location to location, so it’s probably best to always explicitly specify both to take the guessing out of it."
I don’t have a great stake in how this conversation turns out but it has always seemed to me that tagging a barrelled fuel shop with amenity=fuel was misleading. Misleading because the only thing they have in common with a normal fuel station is that they sell petrol. Still, in an emergency, one could buy enough fuel there to get to a bigger service station.
And while many have a hose and nozzle for dispensing petrol, I have never seen one that is self service. So, most are neither full service nor self service, which means those two tags you suggested are both valid and should be part of their tagging.
The selection of a certain tagging scenario with the goal of making these shops show up on OSMAnd or Garmin maps is both wrong and completely beside the point. We don’t tag for the renderer. That is a hard, fast rule in OSM. I make my own Garmin-compatible maps and I take care to render these fuel stations differently. Other renderers may someday choose to do that as well.
Thanks a lot, @Mark_B, for the correction! OsmAnd does even support Fuel Store (shop=fuel), I totally missed that feature. The only downside is that there’s no category for “Fuel Vending Machine,” but we can give requesting it a shot.
I totally agree with you on that. Meanwhile, that data is quite handy for non-tech savvy end-users, and if the majority of renderers aren’t using these separate tags, maybe we’re not on the right track. However, as @Mark_B pointed out, these separate tags are already supported by OsmAnd, and I doubt now that Garmin doesn’t.
Note: all members of the Thailand community are welcome to vote, but kindly ensure that you are familiar with the topic and the complete conversation history beforehand.
Now osmand really crookedly shows vending machines. But now it has become convenient - only large fuel stations are visible on my poi map, and not 5 stations in the village every 100m.
If I urgently need refueling, then I will search for all types of fuel sales and see more vending machines and shops! And the last thing that will worry me is an independent service or not
Fuel stores (barrels and bottles) can often also be used around the clock. Even some big fuel stations won’t sell you a bottle of fuel at night.
We have already discussed this in another thread. But nevertheless:
A vending machine is primarily a vending machine. And he sells something - for example, fuel.
Nobody marks a vending machine for selling water as a water treatment station?
No one marks a vending machine selling food as a fast food restaurant or a grocery store!?
Yes. Osmand has been showing them for a long time (but it’s deep in the search). The problem is that at the same time it shows all the vending machines, not only fuel, but also water and cigarettes and sandwiches
I drive around in Thailand by car. If I run low on petrol, the warning light apepars and I still have 50 or more kilometers left. Enough to reach larger petrol stations. And when driving in areas I am not familiar with, I refill sometimes at half capacity.
I understand that this could be different for some locals having a very tight budget and sometimes only refill a few liters due to budget problem. But I have doubt, that these are then driving in an area they are not familiar with. They know their local shops and where to refill.
The situation to have to rely to such small vending points, whether it is drums, vending machines or bottles simply does not apply to me.
Seeing them on a search for amenity=fuel harms my ability to plan for fuel stops.
This sounds resolved.
Leaves us with motor cyclists. People driving in unknown areas for enjoyment. And tank capacity/range much more limited. They might want to know what to expect.
Opening hours can be tagged as additional tags and is recognized by most software.
Vending machine is probably 24/7, hoping they are not out of order.
I prefer a way which falls back nicely to a non-breaking situation for data consumers not knowing all the relevant sub-tags.
… back to Thai next month.
