Tasmanian bus stops have had their stop IDs and GTFS feed changed

The Department of State Growth has taken over from Metro Tasmania as the provider of the GTFS feed for Tasmanian public transport and what used to be three feeds has been combined into one.

This also means that every public bus stop in the state has had its GTFS stop ID (and other details) changed, but also that the feed is now somewhat well-maintained and reliable.

It seems to me like importing stops from the new GTFS feed is the best path forward but I’ll leave that to those who know what they’re doing.

The GTFS data from Department of State Growth, Transport Services is still under the standard Tasmanian Government “non-commercial purposes only” license terms per Disclaimer and copyright notice | Tasmanian Government. That would need to change before we could consider using the data.

Ah yep forgot they had that restriction, I assume that means the only option is to manually change the stop IDs and other information then?

Somewhat related but not entirely, currently public transport infrastructure in Tasmania is tagged with network ‘Metro Tasmania’ even though the Department of State Growth is actually the entity that manages the network and the list of operators on the Australian Tagging Guidelines is out of date and includes companies that no longer exist (East Tamar Bus Lines, Merseylink, O’Driscoll Coaches, Redline Coaches) and is missing one that now exists (Kinetic). The guidelines are also missing Derwent Ferries and Skybus (Skybus is not managed by DSG nor does it use the DSG GTFS feed).

Should something here be changed?

If this changes to a license compatible with OSM: PTNA can help!

If the new stop IDs appear on the ground on the bus stop signage, then yes.

Yes if the documentation on the Australian Tagging Guidelines is outdated or could be improved please go ahead and do so.

As for the tagging, I’d suggest to discuss this further. Based on https://www.metrotas.com.au/corporate/who-we-are/ it appears

Metro Tasmasia manages the busses, but State Growth manages the bus stops, routes/timetabling and sets fare. Then presumably there would be actual operator or the company that manages the drivers/busses. The network=* tag need not be an entity rather just the brand name of the network all the routes are grouped under?

If it’s agreed within the community to change it, I’d suggest an automated edit to to a mass update, at the same time the Name Suggestion Index https://nsi.guide/index.html?t=transit&k=highway&v=bus_stop&cc=au#metrotasmania-8d1bab would need to be updated since it’s recommending to add the Metro Tasmania network and operator tags.

Metro and other companies operate the routes and manage their buses and drivers. DSG sets the routes, timetables and fares and manages contracts. The GTFS feed provided by State Growth lists “Public Transport Tasmania” as the feed publisher in feed_info but this is just a name they’ve thrown in and isn’t a real entity.

I also noticed today that Derwent Ferries has a similar issue where an operator named “Navigators” is the default when this simply doesn’t exist and Derwent Ferries is the network when again the route is set by State Growth and is in theory the same “network” as the buses

It looks like then the details at https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Australian_Tagging_Guidelines/Transportation#Buses_and_coaches might be somewhat correct then? The operators being Calows Coaches, East Tamar Bus Lines etc.

Timetables & Maps - Metro Tasmania seems to break up the networks as Hobart Network, Launceston Network, Burnie Network. In NSW we have “TfNSW - Sydney Buses” and “TfNSW - Regional Coaches” and in VIC we have “PTV - Metropolitan Buses”, “PTV - Regional Buses”, “PTV - Regional Coaches”.

So perhaps we should have “Metro Tasmania - Hobart Network”, etc.?

Regarding Derwent Ferries, it was added in Changeset: 112868718 | OpenStreetMap I’ve left a changeset comment to see where “Navigators” came from.

I think the problem with splitting the services like that is that Metro Tasmania isn’t the only operator. Kinetic, Tassielink, Calow’s Coaches, Manion’s Coaches and Derwent Ferries are all also part of the Tasmanian public transport network and fundamentally have nothing different about them. All six companies operate public services contracted out by State Growth. All six are a part of the Tasmanian public transport GTFS feed provided by State Growth. All six will use the same payment method starting next year and three of the companies - Metro Tasmania, Kinetic and Tassielink - operate services across the state, many of which run between the “areas” that State Growth splits the timetables into on their website, they only do this to make it easier to find the right timetable.

Hopefully MetroTasmania | OpenStreetMap may get in touch with a way forward

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Sorry I’m thinking about for the route relations, but I think you’re talking about the actual bus stop nodes.

For the routes relations I think each of those should be noted as the operator since these are the companies which operate the routes. Then the network tag dictates that they are all part of the same transport network, which could just be “Metro Tasmania” if that’s better.

For the bus stop nodes, per https://www.metrotas.com.au/corporate/who-we-are/ they should have operator set to State Growth.

Ohhh yes sorry, there aren’t any route relations mapped in Tasmania that I’m aware of so yeah I’m talking about the stops.

Yeah currently they’re all tagged with network Metro Tasmania when they should be the Department of State Growth.

How should this change be made (also for the ferry stops)?

Discussed here, then if agreed it can be done as an automated edit.

However, while I can see why State Growth should be the operator of the bus stops given they maintain and operate the physical stops, I’m not sure about network. The network tag isn’t the entity which operator of the routes, it’s the name of the public transport network. State Growth is a big department so it doesn’t seem to line up with how the network tag is being used in other states.

The operators should be Metro Tasmania, Tassielink, Kinetic, Calow’s Coaches, Manion’s Coaches and Derwent Ferries shouldn’t they? They operate the routes.

The network is what needs to be changed because Metro Tasmania has nothing to do with the network itself. You’re probably right that State Growth isn’t the right choice, maybe just Public Transport Tasmania then?

Oh wait is the operator tag on a bus stop referring to the operators that use the stop or the operator of the stop? If its the latter then I (and many other people) have misunderstood the tag and listed all the operators that run a service through a stop and yes State Growth should be the operator.

“[operator=*] is used to name a company, corporation, person or any other entity who is directly in charge of the current operation of a map object.”

So the operator=* tag on a highway=bus_stop should refer to the company or organisation who is responsible for the operation of the stop, not the bus operators which use the stop, which seems to be State Growth.

That seems okay and I would agree that Metro Tasmania seems to be just one of the network operators, but it’s not the network itself. “Public Transport Tasmania” seems okay, but when you look at all the transit presets for Australia at Name Suggestion Index there do seem to be a lot of instance of the operator being the network, so I’m not sure.

Even once it’s agreed what to use for the network tag, without access to the GTFS data we don’t have a good way to know which bus stops are operated by State Growth and part of the Public Transport Tasmania network.

An automated edit which selected any highway=bus_stop would incorrectly capture bus stops like Node: ‪Dove Lake - Cradle Shuttle Bus‬ (‪1964283434‬) | OpenStreetMap which shouldn’t be, or other private bus networks like the SkyBus in Hobart which should be it’s own network.

“Public Transport Tasmania” seems okay, but when you look at all the transit presets for Australia at Name Suggestion Index there do seem to be a lot of instance of the operator being the network, so I’m not sure.

I think this is because Victoria/NSW use one branding for their entire network (PTV and tfNSW respectively) but services are still contracted out to private companies. Tasmania on the other hand does not have a standard branding, instead we have Metro Tasmania and Derwent Ferries, which are state-owned, and we also have Tassielink/Kinetic/Manion’s Coaches/Calow’s Coaches who all use their own brandings and websites but are still operating public bus routes managed by the Department of State Growth.

An automated edit which selected any highway=bus_stop would incorrectly capture bus stops like Node: ‪Dove Lake - Cradle Shuttle Bus‬ (‪1964283434‬) | OpenStreetMap which shouldn’t be, or other private bus networks like the SkyBus in Hobart which should be it’s own network.

This should be solvable by just changing stops tagged with network=Metro Tasmania, many stops don’t have this tag but at least this way it won’t select stops that aren’t part of the network.

Hi,

Not sure what we can add to the conversation other than to confirm that the Department of State Growth is now the provider of GTFS data for all Tasmanian public transport operators. This should now be considered the single source of truth for anything related to OSM.

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That would be great if they didn’t publish their data under non-commercial terms, otherwise it’s hard to use their GTFS data for anything in OSM.

I enquired State Growth about applying an open license to their GTFS data and heard back that they are

“…reviewing relevant Tasmanian Government policies regarding the use of GTFS data currently published on the Transport Tasmania website.”…