In the Sierra Nevada range (California USA) it’s all bear lockers.
The Olympics (Washington USA) use wire hangs with pulleys, at least at the sites I visited.
In the Canada it seems to be mostly bear poles, with some being converted to lockers. I actually sort of preferred the poles as it was easier to store gear away from Porcupines even if they were a bit more work, but people don’t latch them and then the wires get messed up.
In terms of adding onto the wiki structure - the simplest approach would to just use amenity=bear_box for all type of food hangs.
There are people that prefer one storage type over another. Adding amenity=bear_pole and amenity=bear_wire would have more granular information and probably be easier to find for people searching for a specific one. There’s also slightly different preferences - for a locker you can just toss anything in (plastic shopping bag) for a hang or pole you want to either hang your whole pack or have a dry bag etc, and carrying a carabiner can be very handy for bear wires.
Rather than have several closely related amenity=* values, I think I would prefer a two level setup. Something like amenity=bear_storage paired with bear_storage=box|hang|wire.
Maybe bear_storage isn’t a good choice for a value as it sounds like a place to store bears. But a top level tag indicating that bear resistant storage exists at the campsite but not indicated exactly what time would still be a good idea.
I’d suggest to create a new tag amenity=food_cache (to include other “predators” than bears )
To specify the type of cache there could be food_cache=pole/box/…
Have something like amenity=food_cache or amenity=food_storage (Technically it’s all scented items, not just food - which would include toothpaste, chapstick, etc).
Many places have strict limits on how long you can store food in them (24h in wilderness unless you are staying overnight in the same spot, generally a few weeks in front country trailheads but food must have your name and exit date etc) so it’s a very short term cache.
I think having bear in there makes sense, as protecting your food from bears can be different than rodents (a hard sided container vs “chain mail” mesh), but probably as a second level item denoting the type of food cache.
“I didn’t know if Bear Shield meant shields that bears used to protect themselves, or shields people used to protect themselves against bears, or were the shields themselves made out of bears?”
Yeah amenity=bear_proof_storage is more accurate than amenity=food_storage (all scented items vs food).
I think it makes sense to generalize it at the amenity tag, then have different levels below that. I don’t know if say Australia has bears, but they certainly have creatures that can get into food. It could be handy to just have some icon for “oh hey stick your stuff here so it doesn’t get eaten” and then there can be further details.
The Grand Canyon gives backpackers chain mail bags, the Sierra Nevada lets people rent hard sided bear cans etc (not fixed storage obviously just an example of how solutions vary).
Yep, possums in particular, but it’s usually sufficient just to leave food inside the tent or in any closed container, as they can’t physically rip it open like bears can.
On bears though, family who have visited US & Canada have commented on household rubbish bins being secured inside “pillboxes” to keep bears away. Would they be covered under this scheme?
The trash cans at US Forest Service areas that have a bear problem are designed to be bear proof. I don’t think that anyone would be tempted to store their food in them. I would be inclined to exclude them from this as they are not used for storage of an individual’s or group’s scented articles and food.
There could be another discussion types of trash bins. And there is some lore there too as they are difficult to design the reason being “there is considerable overlap between the intelligence of the smartest bears and the dumbest tourists” (attributed to a Yosemite National Park ranger).
If someone tries to store something in them it would be unlikely to be there after the garbage is collected.
The pillbox / walls surrounding dumpsters could be its own thing. Enclosures for dumpsters also exist in commercial parking lots where they don’t want people “dumpster diving” and/or throwing their own garbage in there.
Ah yeah, I remember some Possum creeping up to me in NZ. I went over a pass a little late due to rain and ended up cowboy camping on the side of a non-widely used trail and one of them came up to my sad little camp. I forget what I ended up doing with my food, but I had a hard time falling asleep after that heh.
Getting back on topic, most places have multiple bear lockers. Instead of having multiple amenity nodes, would it make sense to just have that be another level?
Popular trailheads can have a line of over a dozen bear lockers along the parking lot. There’s normally one or two per backcountry camp in SEKI iirc. Backpacker’s camp at Vogelsang High Camp has four sort spaced out next to each other, Jade Lake in Revelstoke NP had four in a 2x2 grid mounted together (that’d be hard to map as distinct objects).
A bear box is entirely self-contained: you don’t need to provide anything but the food. Bear hangs and bear wires require, at a minimum, that you have a hangable container to put the food in.
I’d probably put it as a discrete node. In Parks Canada at least you can have a pit toilet, camp area, poorly constructed picnic tables, and bear storage all scattered around a general “camp area”. Signage is sometimes poor between these areas.
They are just examples of how animalproof= can be used.
If someone wants to draw each cabinet, you need to define the quantity. Or someone only sees 2 cabinets, and doesn’t or can’t count the number of compartments, there should be provisions for it.
I’m thinking it should be amenity=scented_item_storage . That’s the purpose. The animal concerned can be added with animalproof= . Maybe there are multiple prominent animals, or something other than bear is the main threat elsewhere.
Poles without pulleys should be differentiated. They can have hooks or forks.
amenity=scented_item_storage + man_made==locker / =pole / =bar / =pulley + animalproof=bear point. =bar can be a line.
Multiple cabinets or poles scattered around
amenity=scented_item_storage + animalproof=bear + scented_item_storage==locker / =pole / =pulley point at center (area could be allowed, but is arbitrary and only indicative)
man_made=locker / man_made=pole / man_made=pulley + animalproof=bear points when drawn.
It can be argued clustering means this is unneeded, but I suppose there is a difference between clustering of different storage locations, and clustering of cabinets.
A row of cabinets
amenity=scented_item_storage + animalproof=bear + scented_item_storage=locker center point / line / area
man_made=locker + animalproof=bear point / line / area along/inside.
man_made=locker (+ covered=yes ) points inside.
4.1. If single, then amenity=scented_item_storage + man_made=locker + covered=yes is also valid at first.
amenity=scented_item_storage + building=yes (in lieu of better choices; unsure whether they should be man_made=tower) area / + indoor=yes point (?)
In the examples, scented_item_storage=is only added when the devices are detached or separately drawn. The motivation is to allow adding the device separately with man_made= points , while still keeping an amenity= area for the whole group. Otherwise, you would have duplicate points and an area of the same feature tag, with unclear meaning.
I can write a list of example to compare how an amenity=luggage_storage(as raised in Proposal talk:Luggage locker (2017) - OpenStreetMap Wiki that I agreed with) together with man_made=lockers could solve several outstanding examples. This includes additionally counter service, and non-counter service by staff. But that’s further off-topic.
That makes sense. Rodents can be an issue (a more frequent one actually, if not as dramatic) than bears where I usually hike, but anything that’s stationary and bear proof is rodent proof.
Some portable solutions like the Ursack are not - there is a bear resistant version and a bear and rodent resistant version. They used to just have a rodent one too. Note that even the bear ones are not accepted in many very high bear risk areas as legal storage, but it’s an example.
In my general experience all cabinets are within 2 meters of each other and are more often side by side with little to no gap between them. I think an area would be good enough vs mapping out each cabinet (that’d be getting into the margin of error with GPS anyways).
Bear hangs are generally very close to each other - there might be an area with two, then another area with one or two.
I think ideally the number of compartments is what matters, but I think it could be useful to count cabinets as well.
Welp, different people have their own preference and method. You want an area. Another wants a line. Some wants a center point. Others a point for each of them eventually. They all need to be catered for flexibility, ease of use, and compatibility.
I agree the number of compartments is the most important, but it needs to be shown clearly. And taking into account the aforementioned different methods.
It can vary, most of the time it is communal in the backcountry or at least informal. In Revelstoke there was one locker with four compartments and four camp sites, so it’s expected everyone uses a compartment but if you’re the only one there you could use all four.
Along trailheads frontcountry backpacker campgrounds (only eligible before/after a trip), and in backcountry sites in the Sierra Nevada they’re all communal. Many front country campgrounds have a bear locker per campsite which is individual.
I’d be fine with either, along a parking lot a way makes sense, if it’s 2-3 pole hangs near each other having an area probably more makes sense. If someone wants to try and get each bear box individually that’d work, but probably be a pain in areas that have dozens of them.
Having less options probably helps the chance that a renderer can accurately display them all, but there is a lot of variability to keep in mind.
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