[RFC] Tagging proposal for grab rails in wheelchair accessible toilets

[Pieter_Vander_Vennet]

Hi all,

EDIT: in the meantime, I’ve worked out a proposal

We are trying to improve tagging for wheelchair accessibility in toilets and are wondering how to tag this.

We are now focusing on the availibility of things known as hand rails, grab rails or armrests near those toilets.

Some random examples from all over the web:

• A toilet with fixed armrests
• A foldable grab rail and fixed grab rails

How to tag ?

First of all, we need to figure out a proper term. Do we use handrail, support_bracket, grab_rail or support_rail? What is the proper (UK) english term for this? Grab rail seems to be the right term

I’d like to make a distinction between arm rests on the toilet and (foldable) external supports. And maybe we should also make a distinction between foldable and fixed rails. At last, I’d also like to indicate if they are foldable.

So, any ideas on tagging?

Some ideas on the top of my mind:

support_brackets=left, support_brackets:foldable=yes

Or:
armrests=left/right/both, armrests:foldable=yes/no.

OnWheels app has previously used toilets:wheelchair:grab_rail=yes/no and has a very minimal description on the wiki.

Prefix

Another question is if a prefix is needed. For example, if a set of toilets (some toilets designated for men, some for women and some unisex toilets for wheelchair users) is mapped, you’ll expect the support brackets to be only present in the wheelchair-designated toilet. For this, we could use wheelchair:support_bracket or should we use toilets:wheelchair:support_bracket (or whatever key one decides on). This has been settled too

[Pieter_Vander_Vennet]

Paging @HannesVDB-icapps en @Robin_On_Wheels for your opinion as wel.

[H4N5-antw]

Dear Pieter, for the proper UK English terms refer to the Building Regulations for England at Access to and use of buildings: Approved Document M - GOV.UK , specifically Vol. 2 : buildings other than dwellings: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/66f6c5eec71e42688b65ee11/ADM__V2_with_2024_amendments.pdf , chapter 5 shows some of the terms in a series of diagrams ca. p.50 : Drop down rail, grab rail … all the elements are named.
Best, Hans

[Robin_On_Wheels]

Hi Pieter,

With On Wheels we use the term grab rail indeed. I think that’s the most used therm and the most clear. A wheelchair user also grabs this rail to get on the toilet. An armrest is more something on chair and support bracket can describe more things. But open for suggestions. The prefix toilets can also be removed in my opinion if you add this to a node toilets:wheelchair. We did this now because we added this to an amenity node so you know this tag is about the toilet. But we are also looking to map toilets as a separate node and then the prefix is not needed anymore. I believe we also don’t have that many buildings mapped with wheelchair accessible toilets so manually changing these tags wouldn’t be a huge job (happy to help with this). We can also add more description to the tag wiki page. I wasn’t sure what info to put on this page.

[Pieter_Vander_Vennet]

@H4N5-antw That is a great resource! Thanks

@Robin_On_Wheels How often does it happen that there are multiple types of grab_rails on one side of the toilet (e.g. both a wall_mounted and a foldable drop down rail) are present?

[Pieter_Vander_Vennet]

Right now, I’m thinking about the current scheme:

wheelchair:grab_rail:<right|left>=horizontal_wall_mounted;vertical_wall_mounted;diagonal_wall_mounted;drop_down_rail;armrest

With:

• horizontal_wall_mounted if there is a wall mounted grab grab rail in a horizontal direction (eventually combined with a vertical one in one piece);
• vertical_wall_mount is analog
• the “drop down rail” is then one of those foldable support things
• armrest is then an armrest mounted on the toilet. @Robin_On_Wheels Do foldable armrests on toilets exist?

If there are multiple on one side, we would combine them with a semicolon - even though I expect those to be rare.

At last, if there is an identical setup on both sides, we could allow :both=..., but I’d rather keep it separated.

Visiting a wheelchair accessible toilet is good for inspiration, I noticed

[Robin_On_Wheels]

Normally you have a fixed rail on the wall and a moveable rail on the other side. Or a movable rail (foldable) on both sides.

[Pieter_Vander_Vennet]

@Robin_On_Wheels Do you perhaps have a collection of nice example images of all those types of rails? We can publish them on the wiki.

They must have a compatible license (e.g. you took them and are willing to publish them under some creative-commons license, or someone took them for onwheels).

Preferably, they focus on the support rail (or can be cropped to focus on there) and don’t have distracting elements (e.g. no toilet paper dispenser, wall graffiti, …)

[Robin_On_Wheels]

I will check my own pictures if I have any good ones. I will send the link in a private message. You can use them as public license.

[Kovoschiz]

What’s the reason against handrail= ? There are already a few handrail , and 1 application claims support of this format. CartoMobil'ite | Projects | OpenStreetMap Taginfo

• toilets:handrail | Keys | OpenStreetMap Taginfo
• handrail:wheelchair | Keys | OpenStreetMap Taginfo

4 instances nwr["handrail"][amenity=toilets];

[Pieter_Vander_Vennet]

I don’t have anything against ‘handrail’, but there are exactly three toilets:handrail already; and the application you link is dead.

Furthermore, it seems that handrails are commonly used in relation to stairs (see wikipedia, whereas grab bars or grab_rails are associated with bathrooms (again: wikipedia).

Robin Julien is expert in accessibility and the linked UK documention uses the term “grab rail” as well.

I too would intuitively use “handrail” as that is more common as well, but it seems that the term “grab rail” is more commonly used in that community.

[Kovoschiz]

But what’s a “handrail” for, if not grabbing? And difference between “bar” and “rail”? This terminology is quite arbitrary. OSM doesn’t need to invent a close synonym for each purpose. handrail= is already used by applications generically. It doesn’t need much more work to be extended to toilets further.

[Pieter_Vander_Vennet]

In the meantime, I’ve added some example pictures of grab rails to the wiki page

[Pieter_Vander_Vennet]

And I’ve also created a proposal (in draft status): Proposal:Grab rails - OpenStreetMap Wiki

[Robin_On_Wheels]

In the accessibility community we all use grab rails for toilets. Also in most official documents grab rails is used. I do get your opinion of not making it more complex by using another therm beside handrail. But it’s also important to use the official terms set by the community. With the On Wheels app we use grab rails and we have more than 4 nodes in OSM using this already. It would be nice to make these official with this proposal.

[Kovoschiz]

I mean, “handrail” is the term in elevators as well. They aren’t for movement, but holding onto while standing. The purpose is similar. Would that industry’s standard handrail= , or your grab_rail here be used for them then?

[Robin_On_Wheels]

A handrail is used to hold on while standing or walking. A grab rail in a toilet is used to transfer from the wheelchair to the toilet. Its similar, but also different.

[APneunzehn74]

If any of these images are useful to you, please let me know. I’m happy to upload them to Wikipedia Commons.

[hoserab]

@Kovoschiz

But what’s a “handrail” for, if not grabbing? And difference between “bar” and “rail”? This terminology is quite arbitrary. OSM doesn’t need to invent a close synonym for each purpose. handrail= is already used by applications generically. It doesn’t need much more work to be extended to toilets further.

Extending the use of handrail for anything remotely resembling a rail upon which one may lay hands, simply for the perceived convenience of not having a different tag in OSM for a bar used for accessibility purposes at a toilet, is in and of itself an “arbitrary invention”. Tagging these things as handrail is “OSM inventing a close synonym.”

I can’t speak to the common parlance in the UK, but in North America such ‘rails’ in toilet stalls are called “grab bars”; if you wanted to purchase one to install at home that’s the name by which retailers sell them, and it’s the term used in the Americans with Disabilities Act and Part 3 of the National Building Code of Canada. grab_rail seems close enough, if that’s the common term in the UK.

[Kovoschiz]

For that matter, elevators can have a small chair for non-wheelchair users to sit on. Handrails would function more similarly for holding onto when sitting down. If “handrails” are allowed for not only moving, but also standing, it doesn’t seem very different to include holding onto when transferring yourself between different seating.