Request for Comments: Solution proposal for the `path` issues

Dear all, please have some patience with the path threads. It turns out to be a complex topic, which well illustrates the current reality on OSM and related maps. Hopefully we are getting to some viable solution that makes sense, is not difficult to apply, and overall provides benefits to all path users.

The goal here is to provide the solution that has been shaped by the comments in various threads mainly over previous weeks and months, but also with inputs from efforts made in the previous years.

The problems this is supposed to solve are mainly collected at Documenting the problems with `highway=path`.

The proposal is a follow-up on the working version started in Documenting solution proposals for `highway=path`, which is based on Pathway=* for ways not used by or intended for cars.
Those threads contain some further relevant historical information and links.

Please note that the text in the next post is the actual proposal. It is not the final version but will be updated as per your comments. For that reason, the first four posts are created as Wiki entries and are editable by all.
The purpose here is to get your feedback on it and try to shape it further, if possible. The current version is a summary of the perceived consensus on the topic by the authors of the above-mentioned threads.
Your participation is very much encouraged and highly appreciated.

TOC:

3 Likes

This post contains the text of the proposal.

Naming

As there does not seem to be much support for the path sub-types to be included in the highway=* tag and thus effectively deprecating highway=path straight away, a new tag would be used for subdivision.
TBD: The suggested names are path=* or pathway=* or route=* or trail=*
Over time, this could turn into the primary tag by dropping highway=path from ways with path/pathway/route/trail=* (written path=* for brevity in the following)

The main distinction between highway=* and path=* is that cars can use highways but not paths. Secondary distinction is that virtually all highways above track are built. On the other hand, paths are usually not built/constructed. There are exceptions to this: there are built paths in urban areas (for example ways shared by bikes and pedestrians in parks or alongside roads) or in highly managed rural or natural areas (in national parks or non-car links connecting urban areas. Non-built paths follow the terrain, they were created by people or animals repeatedly treading the same trajectory and may contain “interventions” like ladders and steps.

Requirements

The tagging of a Path should normally happen for the whole duration of the path. That is, between the two junction points, at which it connects to other paths or roads. Exceptionally, if the path characteristics change dramatically and for a “decent” length (i.e. 100m?), or otherwise mark a significant change, the sections of a path can be tagged differently even on one leg between two junctions.

TBD: There is a suggestion to require a path subtag for highway=path (similar like subtag is required for tourism=information).

Values

The proposed values for path=* are:

karrenweg

“Karrenweg” Working name. TBD: some name suggestions: track, single-track, multi_use, motorcyclefootway, all_but_cars, two_wheels, carless, cartwheel, multi-use single track:

  • Suitable for wheeled traffic but narrower than highway=track.
  • TBD: It may additionally include paths where cars are legally banned but would otherwise fit.
  • Paths where motorcycles and (road) bicycles can be used with ease, both legally and practically, but also carts, carriages, wheelbarrows, quads, horses etc.
  • Exceptions to legal access can be marked with, for example, motorcycle=no.
  • Should not overlap with shared_use, highway=cycleway, mtb_single_track.
  • TBD: Conceivably could be broken alongside the built/unbuilt distinction (then the main difference would be whether they are well-usable during rain), but probably not needed.
  • German name for this is “Karrenweg”
  • an opinion on cycleway was provided in Request for Comments: Solution proposal for the `path` issues - #77 by ZeLonewolf. Using such a definition, cycleways would cover the Karrenweg type of path.

trail

trail (also suggested: path)

  • Not generally practically suitable for vehicle traffic but suitable for pedestrians.
  • Legal access mainly undetermined. Both trails where technically anything is legally permitted and trails that are allowed only for pedestrians are admissible. This would make it explicit that unconstructed highway=footway should be tagged as trail.
  • These are mostly unbuilt. Built ones fall under highway=footway. Some lightweight maintenance like pruning vegetation and preventing erosion is fine.
  • While it technically might be possible to ride a bike there (or a rugged motorbike), these ways are only really suitable for mountain bikes. In any case, when meeting somebody, it usually means the other person needs to step aside to let the biker pass.
  • TBD: Can be further divided into two subsets:
    • easy_trail, wide_trail This is easy, allows for safe passing of people (even if they have to leave the trail itself).
    • difficult_trail, narrow_trail Appropriate for only one person at a time. Too narrow for two persons to pass each other comfortably and safely. More demanding than easy_trail.

trace(s)

traces. Path that is barely discernible on the ground. Only trace(s) or markers visible.

  • TBD: should it be split from path right away to solve the “we followed the map and almost died” problem?

trackless

  • trackless (?), pathless, off-trail, cross_country,terrain: Path not visible on the ground but terrain suitable (at least) for pedestrian traffic.
  • TBD: should it be split from path right away to solve the “we followed the map and almost died” problem?

Remarks

All of the above are encouraged but not required to have sac_scale (and possibly horse_scale and mtb_scale) specified. Also trail_visibility is recommended, though for difficult_trail and up, at least trail_visibility=good is the norm (which can have exceptions). traces ranges between intermediate to horrible. pathless is bad and below.

(Functionally) Specific

mtb_single_track

mtb_single_track, downhill_trail, mtb_downhill. For MTB (downhill) use.

  • This is for ways specifically designed and meant for people on mountain bikes. That means they are usually modified to make the ride more pleasurable.
  • Legally they do not need to be exclusive to bikes, but in practice, either by social norm, their position in the path network, signage, or their unsuitability (or even danger stemming from dense downhill traffic) for pedestrians means overwhelmingly people on mountain bikes use them.
  • They need not be enclosed in some compound and they can be either for free or paid.
  • They are usually managed, either formally or very informally (i.e. somebody built a MTB-specific trail guerrilla-style).
  • mtb_scale is highly recommended.
  • Encompasses and formalizes: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:path%3Dmtb (which might need renaming).

shared_use

shared_use

snowmobile

snowmobile

  • Either only existing in winter (when they then should be somewhat observable by snowmobile traces) or signed all-year-round but impractical in summer.

mountaineering (?)

mountaineering (in search of possiby better name)

  • Outside of current scope of highway=path, meaning they are harder than sac_scale=difficult_alpine_hiking.
  • Established routes, for example to Mt. Everest, Manaslu (but this is not specific to Himalayas), or Matterhorn.
  • Only routes where one would be likely to meet people when the season and weather is good should be included, by far not all mountaineering routes ever undertaken should be put in.
  • Typically need mountaineering equipment like crampons, ropes etc.
  • Should never be combined with highway=path.
  • Typically leads to a major summit. Sport_climbing routes that people climb mainly for the joy of overcoming difficulties (in climbing shoes, strictly on rope, usually without crampons) are covered by Climbing - OpenStreetMap Wiki
  • TBD: clear differences to Paths and Climbing Routes.

Waterways

“Paths” on waterways, like snorkelling, kayaking, canoeing routes, etc. could potentially be included into the proposal or added later if/when more specification is gathered on those.
So far there was not much discussion on these categories.

Other ways (in highway)

TBD: Ways conceptually today under highway= or other keys that can either stay there or migrate to path/pathway (ideally, they have no overlap with the new tags):

  • via_ferrata
  • ladder
  • steps
  • footway
  • cycleway
  • bridleway
  • golf=golf_cart

unknown?

The last one:
unknown or yes. Ways under path but whose detailed classification is unknown.

  • Especially if the requirement for adding secondary 1tag to highway=path is adopted, this would indicate a new path whose further classification is unknown for some reason.
  • Would basically be a specific fixme.
  • Akin to existing highway=road.
  • Would facilitate moving over from highway=path as it would help to distinguish newly added unknown paths from older not-yet-retagged highway=paths.
1 Like

Examples

This post contains the examples of the (sub-)categories above.

karrenweg

(single_track, multi_use, carless, etc.)


Trail, easy_trail, wide_trail


image

Trail, difficult_trail, narrow_trail


Presence of obstacles on the side makes this one a narrow path:
image

Trail, disputed whether easy_trail or difficult_trail


image

Trace

image
image
(the rock stairs are the trace + blue markers)

Off-Trail

“Pathless”, trackless, no visible traces or markers on a way but terrain suitable for crossing on foot.


image

MTB trail

(mtb_single_track), notice the constructed curved wall made specifically to easy going through the curve at speed on a mountain bike

A trail (easy_trail) next a MTB trail pictured above (on the right you can see the constructed bum described above`)

Other examples of mtb_single_track


Single_Track
A pedestrian would most comfortably walk along the red line. For a biker going downill, momentum makes the yellow line more logical and enjoyable (the difference is faint but discernible here).

Mountaineering

(only the first photo one has a license that makes it ok for the wiki)


Schlange-Manaslu_MingmaDavi-300x225

Existing OSM ways that would be tagged with mountaineering

1 Like

Reserved for other issues and clarifications

There is exactly one issue with highway=path that actually needed addressing (not denying that there are lot of niggles with highway=path, but they are niggles, not major issues), and that is it being rendered or used for routing in circumstances when the users of the path need to be circumspect about what they are doing.

Unluckily this proposal does nothing to address that one single real issue.

6 Likes

And that is exactly where you have a chance to improve it. Based on likely thousands of posts on the topic so far, I would dare to say that not many seem to find that magic issue important enough.

To be clear the proposal actually makes the problem worse by adding more subtags that are going to be ignored. And yes that absolutely nothing would come of the relentless spamming of the forum was clear months ago.

3 Likes

Fully agree! There is already a solution for that real issue, and that is to describe the problem by adding already existing secondary tags such as sac_scale, trail_visibility, hazard, etc… However that solution has two problems:

  1. The number of problematic paths that are tagged with the appropriate secondary tags is nowhere near 100%
  2. These secondary tags are often ignored by data consumers.

What we need to discuss is what to do about these 2 problems.

3 Likes

This proposal lacks a very important part: a description of the problem it tries to solve.

It also lacks sufficiently clear, verifiable criteria to distinguish between most of the values of the secondary tag proposed. “Suitable for wheeled traffic”, “motorcycles and (road) bicycles can be used with ease”. “suitable for pedestrians”, etc. need to be define much more clearly and verifiably.

The “specialized” values proposed are acceptable.

2 Likes

How about

?

It should be in the proposal

3 Likes

Thank you @_MisterY !

(I am going to be travelling until end of March, so wont be able to participate in discussinos much).

I would argue that addition of mountaneering goes to some length to address that issue.

Moreover, I think that traces and pathless cover the other hard trails where people should not go without thinking. The rationale behind that is that if a lot of people go (and so presumably it is somewhat safe), they will manage to create a continuous trail with the excpetion when such a popular route is mainly on rock, which again si covered by traces.

So maybe the proposal should clarify that traces and pathless should normally be only rendered by specialized hiking renderers? I personally would be all for dividing these out of path (and abolishing path altogether). However, the number of likes on this post: History of proposals to fix highway=path ambiguity – and a wayforward? - #3 by Langlaeufer makes me think just cutting a chunk of values from highway=path is basically a nogo. Or maybe I misunderstood @Langlaeufer and cutting of barely discernible ways from path would be deemed acceptable?

I guess there is a hope that if the subtags gain traction, eventually highway=path could be deprecated in their favour (As is being suggested for khttps://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposal:Top-level_information_tag).

Well, over the months of discussions, nobody really came up with an idea how to improve these.

@_MisterY
Now looking at it with fresh eyes, I think that trail should specify better its relationship to bikes and motocycles (in my take, the tag does not mean bikes are impossible to be used, but says that very likely you want a MTB or those dirtbikes or whatever is that category of motorbikes people use to drive up to mountains is called, but using such trails with these wehicles is by far not straightforward, plus when meeting such vehicles, the other person needs to step aside from the way to let them pass).

That is indeed the nub of the problem.

An analogy might be that there is a hole in a major road between a suburb and the nearest town. We know that there is a hole, and want to stop anyone falling down it.

One option might be to write to everyone who might use that road to tell them of the hole, and suggest that they avoid it. The problem is that even if they get the initial message, they might have forgotten by the time they next go into town, and fall down the hole.

As a short term measure we could try putting signs up advertising the hole. Unfortunately some people will be in too much of a hurry and not see the signs, and fall down the hole.

What we need to do is to actually fill in the hole. In this case it means weaning mappers off using highway=path where it would mislead both map makers and map readers.

5 Likes

Thank you for your efforts in trying to summarise what has been said so far.

Unfortunately I’m not sure it gets us towards not using highway=path where it would be inappropriate.

5 Likes

I can see a lot of ways in your trail section where I see no issue to cycle with my trecking bike on. And a couple more where only surface and smoothness would prevent me from doing so.
Based on your definition

they would not fall in the trail category.

Of course. But would you commute on them to work daily, using a road bike? Or is it about going for a fun MTB ride twice a year on a sunny day?

Your proposed definition states vehicle in general, which includes all type of bicycles and also does not refer to commuting or fun rides. It states just it’s not practical possible, aka it would be legal to do so, but you can’t.

Neither do I see how it will get data consumer to use it and due to this mapper to add it to a certain level where it starts to get useful.

There is also not really a scaling logic behind those classifications. So like ways could fall into multiple categories.

It is hilarious to read these comments and imagine that we’re talking about roads.

4 Likes

I completely understand not wanting to scope-creep this already large proposal, but golf cart paths are already de facto tagged as highway=path golf_cart=yes. Would the golf cart paths be “karrenwegen” or “unknown” while we wait for a more specific value for them?