Refreshed proposal - Emergency=disaster response

[Fizzie41]

Response from Austria community:

Vorschlag:Notfall=Katastrophenschutz - Proposal:Emergency=disaster response

Das Thema ist sehr komplex, daher kann ich sicher nicht alle Aspekte in kurzer Form schriftlich zusammenfassen, aber ich versuche hier die wichtigsten Punkte festzuhalten. Die Struktur des Zivil- und Katastrophenschutzes in Österreich ist völlig anders als in Deutschland. Es gibt keine zentrale Zivil- und Katastrophenschutzorganisation auf staatlicher Ebene wie in Deutschland das THW. Es gab bzw. gibt in Österreich zwar ein THW, aber es hat hier nie diese Stellung erreicht und ist mittlerweile …

[os-emmer]

Some time has passed and I revisited the proposal. I refined the Classification of organisations-table.

My current understanding of the world wide situation is, that there are two basic kinds of organisations for emergencys/disasters:

1. Organisations that have the main objective to send people and equipment to do actuall work in the field.
   Example tasks: Use tools like a crowbar, a pickaxe or an excavator to take someone out of a collapsed house, rebuild destroyed infrastructure.
   Example Organisations: SES (Australia), THW (Germany)
2. Organisations that have the main objective to send information and orders to the public and to government agencys.
   Example tasks: send a text message to everyone in the affected area with warnings, tell government agencys how to act to help in the disaster, school civilians how to act in a disaster before a disaster happens.
   Example organisations: CDSCHQ (South Korea), BBK (Germany), ÖZSV (Austria)

These organisations are in my eyes too different to groupe them under one single tag. I have this proposal:

• We use emergency=disaster_response for the organisations that have the main objective to respond to a disaster by sending people and equipment to do actual work.
• We use something like emergency=disaster_administration for the organisations that have the main objective to ensure that everyone (civilians, agencys, companys) know how to act in a disaster, eighter by schooling them before a disaster happens or by administrating the work in disasters by informing and giving orders to civilians, governmental agencys or companys.
• We already have the operator=* tag for telling the different organisations appart and the operator:type=* tag for explaining if the organisation is private or governmental.

What do you think about this proposal?

[os-emmer]

I am not sure if any of you (@Fizzie41, @Casey_boy, @adreamy, @Adamant1, @Polarbear) is still watching this disussion. You were the ones who were most active here so I ask you directly:
What do you think about my thoughts about differing between emergency=disaster_response and something like emergency=disaster_administration (see my last post)?

I for my self am not realy sure about the disaster-administration tag. I think in Germany we would not realy need this kind of tag because there are not many places that could fit this tag. emergency=disaster_response would be sufficient for the situation here. And I think for Australia it is the same. Do you @Fizzie41 agree?
But we need a tagging scheme that works internationally. What do you @adreamy think about the situation in South-Korea? Cound emergency=disaster_administration be usable for the CDSCHQ?

I am still trying to find a definition for emergency=disaster_response. Maybe something like this:

A permanent place of an organisation that has the main objective to help people after and during big disasters or catastrophys by working in the affected area. The place is used for storing equipment (hand tools, trucks, boats, safety gear, …), training the members (volunteers and paid ones) or repairing the equipment.

And here are some examples that could help with understanding the definition:

Examples for the equipment of the organisation:

• basic hand tools (hammer, screw driver, chissel, pickaxe, shovel, …)
• basic power tools (drill, chainsaw, …)
• construction vehicles (excavators, cranes …)
• trucks/cars
• boats
• tents
• water pumps (small ones that can be carried by 1 or 2 people but also some that are so big that they are permanently attached to a truck trailer)
• electric generators (small ones that can be carried by 2 people but also some that are so big that they are permanently attached to a truck trailer)

Examples for objectives of the organisations:

• finding and rescuing people from collapsed houses
• provisorily repairing or replacing damaged infrastructure (roads, bridges, electric wires, electric generators, communication wires, water pipes, …)
• pumping away flood water from big areas
• setting up tents or other temporary homes for people who got homeless because of a disaster

This is not a complete list. There can be other tools and tasks done by emergency=disaster_response-oraganisations. And it is not necessary that the organisation has/does all the above meantioned things to qualify for emergency=disaster_response.

Firefighters (amenity=fire_station) and ambulances (emergency=ambulance_station) do not fall under the definition. Even though they may have some of the meantioned equipment or do work in big disasters, that is not the main objective for them. They mainly assist in smaller but more common situations (a single house is burning, someone fell down the stairs and needs to go to the hospital asap, two cars crash into each other). emergency=disaster_response should be the tag for the organisations that are necessary if something big happens (a massive earthquake, floodings that convert citys into lakes, black-outs that affect citys or even bigger regions, …).

What do you (especially @Polarbear, the original creator of the proposal) think about this definition and the examples?

[Fizzie41]

@os-emmer

still watching this disussion

Sorry, yes, have been watching, but also busy the last couple of days

@os-emmer

not realy sure about the disaster-administration tag.

I’m wondering the same as that could also just come under government=office or similar?

@os-emmer

I think for Australia it is the same. Do you @Fizzie41 agree?

Yes!

@os-emmer

during big disasters

Take out “big”, because the SES here will help if it’s only 1 house.

@os-emmer

Examples for the equipment of the organisation:

I don’t think you’d need to be so specific in what sort of equipment they use?

@os-emmer

Examples for objectives of the organisations:

• finding and rescuing people from collapsed houses
• provisorily repairing or replacing damaged infrastructure (roads, bridges, electric wires, electric generators, communication wires, water pipes, …)
• pumping away flood water from big areas
• setting up tents or other temporary homes for people who got homeless because of a disaster

No, the only one of these that SES would do would be pumping of water & it wouldn’t be for a “big” area. Rescue from a collapsed building would be Fire or Police Rescue; replacing infrastructure is a Government problem at a later stage; emergency housing like that would likely be provided by either Army or Red Cross.

[os-emmer]

Thank you Fizzie for your answer.

@Fizzie41

@os-emmer

during big disasters

Take out “big”, because the SES here will help if it’s only 1 house.

Then the definition would be:

A permanent place of an organisation that has the main objective to help people after and during disasters or catastrophys by working in the affected area. The place is used for storing equipment (hand tools, trucks, boats, safety gear, …), training the members (volunteers and paid ones) or repairing the equipment.

If we used this definition the fire departments in Germany and probably also in most other countrys would need to be tagged as emergency=disaster_response because a single buring house could count as a “catastrophy”. You could argue the same with hospials. Basicly everything that makes that you need a hospital is a (small) catastrophy for you.
But grouping all these things would be bad in my oppinion because they all are very different in what they actually do.

I collected some inforamtion from the English and German wikipedia, from the proposal page, from the currently in use tag emergency_service=technical and from other places in the internet.

The proposal page includes

A station of an agency providing emergency response for civilians during or after a disaster (natural or anthropogenic).

and

Stations of State Emergency Services, Civil Protection, or Civil Defense Services are facilities of the governmental and non-governmental organisations, aiming to support the civilian population in cases natural or anthropogenic disasters.

The wiki page of emergency_service=technical includes something that does translate to something like

Places of organistaions that provide technical rescue but do not regulary do fire-fighting or medical emergency services.

Taking all these information into consideration I came up with

A place of a not-military organisation that has the main objective to help the civil population during and after natural or anthropogenic disasters by working in the affected area but does not have firefighting or medical service as their main competence. The place is used for storing equipment (hand tools, trucks, boats, safety gear, …), training the members (volunteers and paid ones) or repairing the equipment.

What do you think about this reworked definition? I am not realy sure about excluding firefighters and medical services with this kind of definition. But they already have well established tagging schemes.

@Fizzie41

I don’t think you’d need to be so specific in what sort of equipment they use?

I just wanted to give some examples. These examples are not a part of the definition. I just want to make sure that we are realy talking about the same thing.

@Fizzie41

No, the only one of these that SES would do would be pumping of water & it wouldn’t be for a “big” area. Rescue from a collapsed building would be Fire or Police Rescue; replacing infrastructure is a Government problem at a later stage; emergency housing like that would likely be provided by either Army or Red Cross.

Ok, so there seem to be some differences between Australia and Germany. But like I said, these are just examples and not the definition. What kind of work does the SES do? Can you give some typical examples? You said “replacing infrastructure is a Government problem at a later stage”. To be clear, what I meant was stuff like this:

• replacing a big bridge that got flooded away with a temporary one (example)
• setting up a diesel generator at a hospital in case of a blackout
• setting up a big radio antenna for communication in case the normal ones are not usabel for whatever reason (example)

Hearing some other people with knowlege about different comparable organisations would be nice.

[Fizzie41]

@os-emmer

What kind of work does the SES do? Can you give some typical examples?

Spoke to a couple of people on another Forum, that I know are actually in the SES. Their response:

"Depending on the level of training a typical SES unit will do

Road rescue after vehicle accidents
Search for lost people
Rescue people trapped in caves
Do search and rescue in flood waters
Support Fire brigades in bush fires, Police at major accidents
Support the community after major wind storms securing property, clearing roads of trees down

In short support the community after fire, flood and storm damage with many units qualified to do rescues after traffic accidents."

&

“Not just after. The SES also do a lot of preventative work – both on their own before/during storms and floods with sandbagging, securing windows and doors, etc – and assisting the RFS and Police during searches”