I think the voices in this thread arguing for using the Persian Gulf name (@ChehrehBargi and @Ali_Zangeneh) would be better off trying to constructively help resolving this issue you mention. For instance by proposing concrete schema changes and/or developing useful name selection algorithms for renderers to use.
Throwing documents around without thoroughly engaging with the reasoning behind the current choice of name will get you nowhere. At least try to steelman the position you disagree with before attacking it.
Throwing legal threats at us will definitely get you nowhere and only makes it seems as if you’re arguing in bad faith.
Which fight? I have not started a war. The things I have said so far are not threats, they are events that have happened and we are witnessing them. Wherever there are multiple opinions, whoever makes a claim has to prove it, and I provide evidence for what I say. We are talking about the borders of a country. Certainly, all people of every nation are sensitive towards their homeland and love it. No one will be satisfied to be separated even a bit from the water and soil of his country.
کدام دعوا؟ من جنگی شروع نکرده ام. مطالبی که تا به حال گفته ام تهدید نیستند اتفاقاتی هستند که افتاده است و شاهد آن هستیم. در هر جایی که چند نظر مختلف وجود داشته باشد، هر کسی ادعایی دارد باید آن را اثبات کند و من هم برای سخنانم مدارک ارائه می دهم. ما در مورد مرزهای یک کشور صحبت میکنیم. قطعا همه مردم هر ملتی نسبت وطن خود حساس است و آن را دوست دارد. هیچ کس راضی نخواهد شد حتی ذره ای از آب و خاک کشورش جدا بشود.
While I assume that that should be “Law” and not “Laha” it doesn’t really matter as it doesn’t exist. What does exist is the ICJ however that only hears cases between countries.
I would note that all the other legal “claims” are just as ridiculous.
Side steps but doesn’t quite solve. Vector maps allow users to chose a language for their labels.
If I chose my language as Persian (Farsi), then the label would show up as خلیج فارس (which I believe translates into English as Persian Gulf) because name:fa=خلیج فارس. Problem solved! Except…
…let’s say I chose English, there would then still be a debate about whether it should show as Persian Gulf or Arabian Gulf. Both terms are in English and both are still valid.
(As it happens, it would currently shown Persian Gulf as name:en=Persian Gulf and alt_name:en=Arabian Gulf)
Pri enhavo de la etikedo «name» de plurlandaj objektoj oni jam skribis ĉe la vikio (angle).
Oficiala lingvo de Sauda Arabujo, barejno, Kataro, Kuvajto, Irako, Omano, UAE estas araba, oficiala lingvo de Irano: persa, do la nomo estu en tiuj du lingvoj.
The translation tools seem not to understand Esperanto, so for the benefit of everyone else, Google suggests what you wrote translates as:
"Content of the “name” tag of multi-country objects has already been written on the wiki (in English).
Official language of Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Qatar, Kuwait, Iraq, Oman, UAE is Arabic, official language of Iran: Persian, so the name should be in those two languages."
Mr. SimonPoole
The border of the countries is not a joke, and so is the water and soil of each country.
Every place has its own name. If someone tells you today to change the name of your house, tomorrow they will also say: This house is not yours and get out of it.
The fact that you say that the Persian Gulf and the Arabian Gulf should be written together, the Arabian Gulf is the old name of the Red Sea, and using the Arabian Gulf here is wrong. This is the Persian Gulf and it should be called the same in all languages.
مرز کشورها شوخی نیست و همین طور آب و خاک هر کشور.
هر جایی نام خاص خود را دارد. اگر امروز کسی به شما بگوید اسم خانه خودتان را عوض کنید، فردا هم خواهد گفت: این خانه مال تو نیست و از آن برو بیرون
این که عنوان میکنید خلیج فارسی و خلیج عربی باهم نوشته شود، اصلا خلیج عربی نام قدیم دریای سرخ است و استفاده از خلیج عربی برای اینجا اشتباه است. اینجا خلیج فارس است و در تمام زبان ها به همین نام باید باشد.
It’s not like it was just centuries ago and changed later. Rather, it has been in the same form since centuries ago until now.
In the second case: in other languages, we must have a meaning of the reference label (ie, the name label). In the case of the Persian Gulf, the meaning changes with the change you say. And later, for this reason, its ownership may also change.
این طور نبوده که فقط قرن ها پیش بوده و بعدا عوض شده باشد. بلکه از قرن ها پیش تا به حال به یک شکل بوده است.
در مورد دوم هم: در سایر زبان ها هم باید یک معنی از برچسب مرجع (یعنی برچسب name) داشته باشیم. در مورد خلیج فارس نیز با تغییری که شما میگویید معنی عوض میشود. و بعدا به همین علت ممکن است مالکیت آن هم تغییر کند.
I’d refer people to Soyuz-Apollo program (Apollo–Soyuz - Wikipedia) history to get some ideas how this might be handled. It didn’t provoke WW3 back then, so it must had some merit, eh?
Does this work @ChehrehBargi? Open OpenStreetMap Americana - (disregard the name of the map for the moment), but when you click on Change button on lower-right and type your language, does it display correct name (i.e. the name that your specific country claims is correct)?
If so, then I see solution like that the future for OSM (and default vector map on osm.org autoselecting the language from the user browser settings). That way, everybody would see what they want to see, and there would be no need for all the disagreements and insisting “that other people use names that you prefer”.
Such insistence would be denying other people their free will! They might decide to use the names you prefer when speaking to you, but that is out of politeness, and not out of obligation.
For example, my own country is properly called Hrvatska, and yet most of the world call it some variant of Croatia, except few neighboring countries (some of which we were relatively recently was at war with, BTW – which just goes to prove that using this name or that is not necessarily a sign of (dis-)respect, really).
It is just that different people have different names for things and places. One should really learn to live with that.
About 25% of these waters belong to Saudi Arabia, Iraq, the United Arab Emirates, Kuwait, Qatar, and Bahrain. 25% belongs to Iran. 50% of these waters are also international waters.
Dear Matija_Nalis
I read your content. But one problem remains…
If you want to speak impartially, why does the main tag (name tag) remain in Arabic? In fact, the main problem is the same tag. If other languages want to see their desired phrase, then at least the main tag should be according to international documents. All international documents say that this is the Persian Gulf. But we see that injustice has happened here and they have easily discarded all the documents
Matija_Nalis عزیز
من مطالب شما را خواندم. اما یک مسئله باقی میماند…
اگر بی طرفانه بخواهید صحبت کنید پس چرا تگ اصلی (تگ نام) به زبان عربی باقی میماند. در واقع مشکل اصلی هم همین تگ است. اگر سایر زبان ها مایل اند عبارت دلخواه خود را ببینند پس حداقل تگ اصلی باید مطابق مدارک بین المللی باشد. تمام مدارک بین المللی میگویند که اینجا خلیج فارس است. اما میبینیم که در اینجا بی عدالتی رخ داده است و به راحتی تمام مدارک را کنار گذاشته اند
Make no mistake, 25% belongs to 7 countries and 25% of these waters belong to Iran. The problem is in the main tag. We have to proceed based on the documents. Even if we assume that this sea is international waters, then it should be called according to its international name. The international documents mentioned above.
اشتباه نکنید، 25 % برای 7 کشور و 25 % از این آبها هم متعلق به ایران است. مشکل هم در تگ اصلی است. ما باید بر اساس اسناد پیش برویم . حتی اگر فرض کنیم این دریا آبهای بین المللی باشد پس باید بر اساس نام بین المللی آن نامیده شود. که در بالا به آن مدارک بین المللی اشاره شده.
This is the problem that vector tiles won’t solve. The gulf has multiple names with valid English translations (Persian Gulf and Arabian Gulf), so which should be displayed if the user selects English as their language?
Wikipedia suggests we have it the wrong way round in OSM. With the primary English name being Persian Gulf and an alternative (newer) name being Arabian Gulf.
It’s clearly a politically contentious issue. A useful read which suggests just using “The Gulf” (but I doubt that’ll please anybody!).
Given that the international language of the sea is English, perhaps you’d prefer that in the “name” tag, leaving all the language names as well? Or perhaps “English / Arabic / Persian” in odd years and “English / Persian / Arabic” in even ones**?
** “at the right” being “first” in an RTL language.
