Hm, I think industrial=warehouse or =logistics is out of the picture. It is documented as a subtag of landuse=industrial which would be something very different.
While I would love to not further litter the amenity key and avoid using the shop key for not breaking the expectation that every shop will be accessible (except shop=no, =vacant), I find the existing shop=outpost a surprisingly good fit:
There are already other shops that are accessible usually only to traders: shop=wholesale. Also, there are fast food places that only do delivery.
whether or not such a place offers pick-up (“click and collect”) is really a question of policy that could be changed anytime. If the policy changes (chain-wide), it should not lead to the primary tag having to be changed.
shop=outpost offers a useful subtag space outpost=* analogous to wholesale stores
shop=outpost is a kind of store you wouldn’t search for on the map if you look for a specific product - the wiki describes it as having no or a very limited range of goods in store. So, it wouldn’t be a trolltag to add delivery=only
Are you with me? Then I’d add it to the documentation in the wiki.
Oh, actually, the ID preset for shop=outpost already is translated to “online retailer outpost”, plus I just asked at one of these and pick-up is indeed possible.
shop=outpost may fit for cases where pickup on your own is possible
shop=* - including shop=outpost is not fitting if it is an internal pickup point for couriers and other employees. I would use amenity=warehouse or amenity=dark_store for them. brand=name= etc can be still added.
shop= is not really a good fit where noone from general public is allowed and only employees can enter.
Maybe, but that would change their nature in the same way as changing what is delivered to the shop would change its shop= value.
shop=furniture / shop=sports / shop=fishing could change into each other just by changing policy of what is delivered
but distribution point to couriers/delivery is not a shop/store/point of sale
. I also added a PR to add “Dark shop” (etc) as an alias forshop=outpost for the iD presets
Sorry @Mateusz_Konieczny, I didn’t see your reply until now. However, I would reply to your reply that these kind of online groceries (Gorillas, Getir, Flink, …) are very much alike delivery-only fast-food places like some delivery pizza places etc. just for groceries. Such fast food places we also tag as usual with amenity=fast_food, even if they have delivery=only and takeaway=no tagged. The point of sale for these is also not at that place, but online.
agree, it is a logistic hub with a office office=*
it is also not a amenity
is the top-level tag describing useful and important facilities for visitors and residents,
I see shop chain brands using there homepage (landingpage) as a onlineshop. And want to set them as website=* on every poi of the brand.
Marketingstrategy of the company in OSM. Do we allow that?
The poi should give the information of the location (branch shop).
Openstreetmap is a geographical database, it indicates things at that location. Informative nature. Website information of the location is website=*
If I would encounter such on survey I would definitely retag it as invalid. If you cannot order there then it is not really fast food eatery… If regular person cannot even pickup own orders there then it is completely mistaken. Even if it is in some use.
Marking delivery distribution point with amenity=fast_food with delivery=onlytakeaway=no is about as trolltag as tagging prison as tourism=hostel involuntary=yes
It makes as much sense as marking Pentagon as shop=weapons
Maybe we need some clear alternative tags for that… That would be alternative to marking it as restaurants/shops/etc.
=warehouse is too vague with many meanings. =dark_store seems too specific and literary.
The main issue with =outpost then is it is used for 2 meanings now. The pre-existing one is proposed to be replaced in Proposal:Pickup points - OpenStreetMap Wiki by amenity=product_pickup , plus changes on how =parcel_locker handles them.
Ghost kitchens can be considered together for consistency, which are currently using craft=caterer not amenity= eateries + delivery=only arguable redefinition. Using another amenity= or office= is much better.
not entirely sure is it a big problem here, it seems to be distinct object type with clear meaning and likely to be relatively popular in near future at least…
though may be confusing for nonnative speakers…
Are there better terms available here? Or keys better than amenity=
office=dark_store seems not a good idea, these are not really offices but small warehouses/distribution points.
amenity=delivery_depot (analogous to amenity=post_depot) has been suggested in this thread.
If you think my edit to the wiki to include this type into shop=outpost is not good, and the suggested amenity=* tag is neither, then IMO the closest fit would be a office=* with a fitting (new) subtag such as office=delivery (+delivery=convenience?).
I want to toss in another vote against using the “amenity” key, as that ideally should be for things that are relevant for tourists, or at least useful to the public, which these small warehouses very much are not.
office=delivery seems fine to me and may make people happy as it is likely to render
Though I would want to consult with native speakers is it mangling meaning of office…
I am fine with amenity=delivery_depot (I am also fine with amenity=prison etc.)
technically being able to get something quickly on demand can be considered useful and you need some form of distribution points to achieve that…
And yes, I am not a fan of using shop=outpost for places where only employees* can enter.
Though not sure how it is on range from “I am unhappy about such redefinition” to “I want to hide that redefinition happened and tag is in general used in this way”.
(OSM Wiki is descriptive, not prescriptive and in case that overwhelming use is a bad idea/mismatches something - well, it should be documented even if such tagging is sad and bad)
*to be specific: people employed without official contracts via delivery app are counted as employees here, irregardless what legal department of company employing them prefers.
Marking delivery distribution point with amenity=fast_food with delivery=onlytakeaway=no is about as trolltag as tagging prison as tourism=hostel involuntary=yes
in the case of pizza, it is not just a “delivery distribution point” but also a kitchen / small production facility (it is a service, not industrial)
I want to toss in another vote against using the “amenity” key, as that ideally should be for things that are relevant for tourists, or at least useful to the public, which these small warehouses very much are not.
amenity is not specifically related to tourism, these places here are amenities for the people living around. We even have prisons under the amenity key. I like the proposed amenity=delivery_depot
It’s a warehouse. It’s not a shop. Therefore it should be tagged as a warehouse and not a shop. I’m honestly struggling to see what the difficulty is here.
Hm, I think industrial=warehouse or =logistics is out of the picture. It is documented as a subtag of landuse=industrial which would be something very different.
Why? If I order some furniture online it comes from a warehouse which will be tagged as a warehouse. If I order a book online it comes from a warehouse. If I order my supermarket shopping online it comes from a warehouse. Why is Getir somehow different to Ocado?
Agreed. It doesn’t matter if it is for tourists or local public. But the common think is that amenity is intended for general public. If only employees/contractors could (or would want to) visit such a place, then it does not fit under amenity=* in my opinion.
Why? If I order some furniture online it comes from a warehouse which will be tagged as a warehouse. If I order a book online it comes from a warehouse. If I order my supermarket shopping online it comes from a warehouse. Why is Getir somehow different to Ocado?
the specifics are different, we also distinguish waste baskets from waster containers and recycling centres. This shop is now a getir, it has nothing to do with an industrial warehouse, peeking through the door, it looks almost like a regular convenience store in the inside
the warehouse that delivers to this distribution point is likely a warehouse, although logistics are not really industrial, they are commercial operations (tertiary sector)
I didn’t say “an industrial warehouse”, I said “a warehouse”.
The fact that the OSM tag for a warehouse is industrial=warehouse isn’t really an issue. The OSM tag for an emergency access point is highway=emergency_access_point even though an emergency access point isn’t a highway. And so on.
Its function is as a warehouse. It does exactly the same as an Ocado warehouse does: you order online, the workers pick the food off the shelves, it then gets loaded onto a truck or a motorbike or something and delievred to you. You can’t visit in person. End of.
If you want to tag the fact that the building’s external appearance is like a shop, then use the building= tag for that. But what it is is a warehouse.
Sure, there are big warehouses (industrial=warehouse) inside big industrial areas (landuse=industrial). But there are also small warehouses (the ones being discussed here), often in the middle of residential areas (landuse=residential).
Just like there are huge supermarket shops (shop=supermarket) in retail commercial areas (landuse=retail) or malls, but there are also small convenience shops (shop=convenience) also often in the middle of residential areas (landuse=residential)
I’m honestly struggling to see what the difficulty is here.
The core of that issue (as I understand it) seems to be that some people think we should tag small and big warehouses differently, even in cases when they behave mostly the same (just like we differ on shop=supermarket vs. shop=convenience).
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