Do we need shop=ski and shop=golf?

Can we replace them by shop=sports sport=ski and shop=sports sport=golf ?

And consider shop=ski and shop=golf as deprecated?

That seems highly preferable as having top-level shop value for every single sport seems to be a poor idea, while shop=sports sport= allows presenting the same info, with no data loss, in format much easier to support by data consumers. Anyone supporting specific sport value can continue to do this while general support for sport shops in general does not require manual listing of hundreds/thousands different sport values.

See New preset: shop=ski · Issue #22 · openstreetmap/id-tagging-schema · GitHub and New preset: shop=golf · Issue #21 · openstreetmap/id-tagging-schema · GitHub for some background.


sport:cycling=yes and sport:scuba_diving=yes found in the quick so sport:golf/ski=yes would be a continuance of an existing scheme

shop=sports sport= has >4600 uses, see shop=sports | Tags | OpenStreetMap Taginfo

sport:cycling has 5 ( sport:cycling | Keys | OpenStreetMap Taginfo ), 5 on shops, all in one city ( overpass turbo )

sport:scuba_diving has 107 ( sport:scuba_diving | Keys | OpenStreetMap Taginfo ), 0 of them on shops (overpass turbo )


I suppose the big question is where do we draw the line?

Back when I was starting skiing, and before the internet we had Yellow
Pages. I was looking for local ski shops, which in the case of Yellow
Pages which used the category Sports Shops. Spotting likely candidates
to visit was down to the name (Alpine, Ski, Snow).

I spotted one called Snow Sports, so off I went (somewhere near Derby I
think) and found the shop stocked with tennis rackets, trainers etc.
Not a ski or pair of Moon Boots in sight. It was a sports shop owned by
Mr Snow.

So what about shop=outdoor, there is huge crossover here with ski

Or shop=fishing?

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I’d say if the shop solely sells supplies for that specific sport, then one could tag in the way Mateusz suggests. (Though there could be an argument for a couple of sports, e.g., shop=sport, sport=tennis;badminton or something like that.)

I don’t think outdoor shops (e.g., Mountain Warehouse or Blacks in the UK) would really be classed as sport shops due to the variety of items they sell (e.g., camping gear, hiking equipment).

Yes, this could presumably also be changed to shop=sport + sport=fishing.

Incidentally, there is a whole list of individual sports shops tags currently listed on the wiki. Presumably most could be brought into line: Tag:shop=sports - OpenStreetMap Wiki (e.g., surf, skate).

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I don’t really consider either of these to be sports. Competitions, have been made from them of course, but most of the time they are just leisure activities (commercial fishing is usually a very different thing these days).

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Pretty much every quality outdoor shop I knew of in the UK will sell winter sports equipment (probably mainly boots & clothing, rather than skis) alongside climbing and hiking gear. Classic examples are Snow+Rock, Ellis Brigham, Cotswold Outdoors and , at least in the past, numerous small specialist retailers. They do this because people taking skiing holidays tend to have higher disposable income than hikers and climbers: it’s a market segment which it would be foolish to ignore. The big warehouse brands really dont compete at the quality end of the market.

In alpine areas, outdoor sports shops (often sharing the Intersport brand) are often locally run small businesses. They will run on two seasons: a very busy winter season, with perhaps ski hire and ski servicing as extra services; and, usually, a less busy summer season selling to walkers, climbers, alpinists and perhaps MTB users. Whilst summer is a less busy time it pays the regular bills of keeping the shop open, and can be run single handed. In winter, usually extra staff are needed, although at either end of the season this tapers down: the shop I bought my skis in was being minded by the owners Mum & Dad whilst he was buying stock for the summer season at a warehouse in Landquart.

I would therefore regard regular ski shops as being part of shop=outdoors. Obviously, shop=sports has been as least as popular, but I think @SimonPoole makes the same point in the Github issue that there’s a massive cross-over.

Note most people buying ski gear are participating in a leisure activity rather than a competitive sport, and this is very much reflected in the gear on sale. There are very few shops (even somewhere like Davos, which still has an open downhill competition, the Parsenn Derby) sell ski gear for competitive skiing (racing skis & bindings, back protectors …), which might not qualify as outdoors shops. Most will also sell snowboards and snowboard gear, so shop=ski is incorrect on that basis too.

AFAIK golf shops have been mapped as shop=sports + sport=golf for a very long time (although I’m a bit surprised that I was so late mapping this one).

I think recreational fishing tends to be classed as a sport (obviously not commercial fishing).

In OSM, sport=fishing has been used 797 times (with a dozen or so more instances being used in conjunction with other sports).

Thought leisure=golf_course + sport=golf at 4K uses is interesting in terms of how did that come about?

Looks like currently it’s:

553 shop=sports + sport=golf
207 shop=golf

I think the tendency to shove sport and leisure into the same category has lead to them being conflated over time. I’ve never liked when some classify of e.g. SCUBA as a sport either. To me these are things that have no winner and proceed at a pace that can let them actually be enjoyable so the sport tag doesn’t fit.

Which is equally true of most skiers.

outdoor / fishing


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I don’t really consider either of these to be sports. Competitions, have been made from them of course, but most of the time they are just leisure activities (commercial fishing is usually a very different thing these days).

I also wonder when something is a sport, is it required to be competitive? If not I wonder why there are so few sport=dancing
There’s even one “sport=singing” :slight_smile:

These are likely distorted by the iD prefix (although that looks more plausible for shop=ski):

The values of sport devolve to the old sport/pastime/leisure activity issue. Is dominoes in the pub a sport or pastime? backgammon for stakes is only permissible if the premises have a gambling licence, so presumably neither. Oxford / Cambridge varsity match rivalry awards half-blues for chess, but ballroom dancers can get [full blues](Cambridge Dancers' Club -- Cambridge University DanceSport Team, more here.

Undoubtedly, the sport tag is useful for a pretty broad definition, as the 6000 odd elements with sport=chess attest. And of those, about 2000 are also leisure=pitch. See also outdoor table tennis tables.

I had a quick check of the sport shops in Scuol and they all seem to have both ski, climbing and one has the odd sport=winter, equal in popularity with sport=winter_sports (which I would presume is what sport=ski actually means in context of application to a shop). The tags neglect that they also sell hiking gear. I still think shop=outdoor would be more appropriate, for these.

what you mean by “distorted by the iD prefix”?

It may be my “not a native speaker” thing, but for me it is possible/normal to do sport as a leisure, without doing it as a profession (playing golf as part of business meeting would count for me as leisure sport activity).

So it would be less sport vs leisure and more sport as a hobby/leisure/activity vs sport as paid professional.

Is it distortion of how it is used in English language?

Absolutely. “Sports” includes anything from pickup basketball in the park to the NBA. To be more specific we may refer to the NBA as “professional sports” and pickup basketball as “amateur sports”, “casual sports”, or “leisure sports”. A sports store would happily sell a basketball to anyone whether they plan to use it leisurely or professionally.

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What would be the advantage of tagging all shops that sell anything for leisure or sports with shop=sports + sport=* (ski, golf, hunting, fishing, bicycle …) instead of separate tags? I don’t see any. Should we mix all the different search terms from the separate presets together in the preset for shop=sports? And where and how would we document the different tag combinations in the wiki, so that when you select a shop in the editor and click (i) or some other link, the corresponding wiki information (including taginfo and similar) for this tag combination is shown?

But how about shops for water-skiing equipment? (They’re actually usually covered by =water_sports)

There are definitely some linguistic or cultural differences. In German, for example, Sport is broader and encompasses all forms of exercise. It would be completely normal to have the following conversation: “Machst du Sport?” “Ja, ich gehe jeden Tag laufen” (“Do you do any sports?” “Yes I go for a run every day”) Same with going to the gym.

Whereas in English these would probably only be considered sports if you’re doing them competitively, in a race or a weight lifting competition.

OSM and the Wiki are being edited by people from all over the world, and this is how we get tags like sport=yoga and sport=fitness.

There’s even a documented (!) tag sport=hiking, defined as “the sport of going for long, vigorous walks”.

That might explain, why this quote is only documented in German, even though the context would put it into native English domain.