Avoiding an edit war on bus stops

[mariotomo]

Issue: how to map bus stops with shelters.

Antefact: About two years ago we had a secession in the minuscule mappers community in Panama. At the moment we have the same individuals enjoying mapping on their own, some of us manage to chat on specific issues using a Telegram group, or the forum61. I am not aware of what other mappers agree with each other, if anything: I only see their activity in the map.

One of the mappers who was offended by my calls to quality and to coordination, he had left with this last changeset, and this last comment. These days He back to mapping, which is a good thing, but mapping precisely as I had hoped to correct, commenting precisely as SomeoneElse from the DWG asked him not to.

For example, these two bus stops:
n8832170817,n8832170818
he added them again as ways:
w1069427289,w1069427290

My approach here is to focus on the entities we’re producing, not on the failing interaction …

I know we should not “repeat ourselves” and that “one feature, one object”, but I do see this mapper’s point that the “shelter”, which has an extension, might be better mapped as a way than as a node.

I also know that we should not map for the renderer. On the other hand, the renderer does give us feedback on whether we’ve mapped things properly, or not. Feedback felt more strongly by the beginners among us.

My preference goes to mapping bus stops as nodes, to tag the node with shelter=yes, possibly bench=yes, and to represent the shelters extension as a building=roof (other example). The renderer sort of supports this style, drawing the shape of the building and showing the bus stop (example). Unfortunately, the other mapper discarded this suggestion. I also tried differently, with an amenity=shelter, but the feedback from the renderer is: (1) a generic shelter icon; (2) no shelter extension matching the way; (3) no bus stop icon.

What do other mappers do in such cases?
How to map?
Hints on how to interact will be appreciated, too.

[Kovoschiz]

Consider using highway=platform? This issue naturally arise from the adoption of public_transport=platform on highway=bus_stop (which I agree with, but admit it can be flawed), causing the concepts of waiting and boarding location to be mixed.

It is technically true shelter_type=public_transport (which I in fact personally don’t like much) only says it is constructed as a transit shelter. They can be not used anymore, or repurposed. Problem is there is usually no verifiable area of an ordinary bus stop along a road for it to be enclosed in. However, it can already be included in the public_transport=stop_area.

Anyway, you should not Map For Renderer. Don’t bother too much about how it is displayed. Focus on what’s the correct tagging.

Ps shelter=separate can be used here.

[mariotomo]

about mapping for the renderer, and for the router. I tend not to do that, but I do take both into consideration when I try to understand what would be correct and what not.
if the renderer ignores the elements I just added, it does tell me that the tags I used are not considered by the renderer, so I double check, and either correct my data, or open an issue with the carto team.
beginner mappers would probably only do the first thing, and use the renderer as a validator.

(I consider “Map for the Renderer” those cases where the user wants a green spot, and they put “leisure=park” because green is green and who cares to learn about traffic calming islands, it’s green anyway, let’s use leisure park.) (example)

I hadn’t considered highway=platform.
I don’t think we use public_transport=stop_area in Panama, I should check.

totally agree with you when you mention the mixing up of concepts waiting and boarding: some bus stops here stretch quite a bit along the road, with long haul buses stopping at a different position than local transport, or taxis. Some stops even have fences, to enforce boarding elsewhere.
in my opinion, we’ve got so limited human power to map Panama, that going into such details is out of the question.

[InsertUser]

@mariotomo

some bus stops here stretch quite a bit along the road, with long haul buses stopping at a different position than local transport,

If these stopping points have different references then they may be separately mapable, or possible count as a station.

[Hungerburg (Asa Hundert)]

I see some of this in my local area as well. Not so long ago, we got “converted” to PTv2 (https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:public_transport) by a non-local “PT-mapper”. There are no more highway=bus_stop here. It is all “public_transport=stop_position” on the highway and platforms and shelters besides there. All neatly wrapped in a plethora of relations, so it connects on PT map renderings and maybe even supports special pt routers, that I have yet to see though.

First observation: Public_transport=platform is a very ill defined tag. Only thing for certain, one can stand there waiting, and one can walk on it. Unconnected from the routing graph, it creates islands, that one cannot get off: It may just be a stretch of a glorified sidewalk, but it may also be in an aerialway station right beside a two meters deep hole.

Bus stop shelters commercially get traded as street furniture. So I personally consider amenity=shelter a much better fit than a building type. Here it is all tagged both: amenity for correctness, building=roof for the renderer. The platforms are separate from this.

It is a pity, that the shelter icon displaces the bus stop icon in OSM-Carto rendering. I do not see much chance in filing an issue there. If you want to see the extent of the shelters on OSM-Carto rendering, you may have to go full PTv2, or, if short on resources, at least, map the stop_positions, to have something shown.

[InsertUser]

@Hungerburg

There are no more highway=bus_stop here. It is all “public_transport=stop_position” on the highway and platforms and shelters besides there.

Call me old fashioned but this is pure vandalism to me. The old and new style tagging can and should coexist.

If anything I would object to public_transport=platform for a pole in the ground that can’t reasonably be described as a platform in any meaningful sense, but let’s not open old wounds about writing a standard about rail based infrastructure and crowbarring it into the shape of a bus route.

[Allroads]

For these countries who must obey.
Traffic law.
A traffic_sign

by the vienna convention

the pole says, this is a highway=bus_stop if it is not there it is not a bus stop.

There are countries which you may not stop inside the circle of, for example, 12 meter from this sign.
And therefor this sign must be set correctly on a pole.

@InsertUser

Call me old fashioned but this is pure vandalism to me.

Agree, from a traffic motorcar point of view.