According to this table, a subkey can consist of a country code. We’re more familiar with language codes as subkeys because of name:*, but some other tagging schemes like ref:* and place:* are namespaced by country instead. Country codes should be uppercase to avoid confusion with language codes like de.
(Entschuldigen Sie, dass ich Englisch spreche; ich habe in der Schule nie Deutsch gelernt. )
Interesting. Until now, I was under the impression that keys are pretty much case-insensitive. Thanks for the enlightenment.
However, the fact remains, that we have a feudal school system, so each federal state in Germany can have/has its own school system. Should we use school:DE-NI=* (ISO 3166-2 code) to refer to Niedersachsen, or rather school:DE=NI:*?
Deutsch:
Interessant. Bislang war ich der Ansicht, dass bei Keys Groß/Kleinschreibung irrelevant ist… Danke für die Aufklärung.
Dennoch bleibt die Tatsache bestehen, dass wir ein föderales Schulsystem haben, sodass jedes Bundesland in Deutschland sein eigenes Schulsystem haben kann/hat. Sollten wir school:DE-NI=* (ISO 3166-2-Code) verwenden, um auf Niedersachsen zu verweisen, oder eher school:DE=NI:*?
Many syntaxes already combine country and state codes. school:DE-NI=* would be similar to ref:US-TX:thc. Alternatively, school=DE-NI:* or school=DE:NI:* (like network=*) would be simpler for data consumers to support (only one key). After all, we probably only care about how this school is classified by the state in which it is located, not how the neighboring state would classify the school. Or are there schools that are half in one state, half in another state, like we have in the U.S.?
If there is a set of terms that is usable and unambiguous across the country, you could use those terms instead of state-specific terms under state namespaces. Or perhaps you could put all of these values directly in a DE namespace and accept some inconsistency in the semantics from state to state.
It’s not that the states classify school systems differently, but each state has its own, sometimes with the same name, just slightly different nuances. So while there are Germany-wide standards like “Gymnasium”, in some states, it lasts 8 years, in some 9, and in one state, schools even offer both forms. So something like school=DE:Gymnasium makes sense (could probably use some subkey to distinguish between 8 and 9 years), but the „Stadtteilschule“ in Hamburg should probably be school=DE-HH:Stadtteilschule. Then in some states, we have „Volksschule“, which is a combination of an elementary school with a lower secondary education (classes 1-9, some states 1-10). So depending on the state they are in, the meaning changes slightly.
Trust me, the school system is very confusing, especially if you regularly move between states and have kids.
Even if, they would still be one type of school. So that’s not an issue here.
I’m very familiar with this kind of inconsistency in the U.S., since none of these school types have standard meanings. One elementary school serves grades Pre-K through 5 while another elementary school only 200 meters away serves grades 1 through 8. A junior high school and a middle school 1.7 kilometers apart both serve grades 6 through 8. The only thing we can assume is that a single school district doesn’t have both middle schools and junior high schools. Actually, never mind: a junior high and a middle school in the same school district, 680 meters apart.
I disagreed with @archpdx’s proposed American presets yesterday because, even though distinctions like “elementary” are useful on maps, the meanings are so inconsistent that we only really use grade levels (grades=*) to compare unrelated schools. But Germany’s schools seem to be somewhat more organized, so you have more options.
Do we really need to encode all those details? We still have geometric relation with the School-POI with the state border. So a “Gymnasium” within NRW can be clearly defined for data consumers that need this level of details.
That’s what I like about the combination of school with school:DE. The school part is something like the broader category so clearly separate “Grundschule” (Grade 1-4) from the other schools. And school:DE can be used to hold the specific name of the given state. There are already values like Realschule Plus in use which is one of those special names (more are listed in Wikipedia).
Joa, aber in SH können sich Gymnasien aussuchen, ob sie G8, G9 oder beides anbieten. Und gerade wenn man mal zwischen den Bundesländern umzieht, ist es wertvolle Information, welches der Systems nun wo angeboten wird. Und dasselbe Spiel bei Gesamtschulen. Und bei Volksschulen gibt es auch welche, die nur bis Hauptschule gehen und einige, die bis Realschule gehen.
Deswegen sag ich ja: erstmal Liste machen und dann gucken. Vielleicht will man das ja gar nicht alles als Werte in school-haben, sondern eher separate Keys wie „erwerbbarer Abschluss“ „Klassen von/bis“, „Abendrealschule ja/nein“, „Abendgymnasium ja/nein“, usw. haben. Aber dazu müsste man genau wissen, was es gibt
Do we really need to encode all those details? We still have geometric relation with the School-POI with the state border. So a “Gymnasium” within NRW can be clearly defined for data consumers that need this level of details.
it doesn’t stop at “Gymnasium”, there are significant differentiations like “classical” (you start with learning Latin and ancient Greek rather than English), scientific, music, art or sports focus (or combinations of these), which languages are offered, etc. Some of these can be very permanent, others change every few years. In principle we should strive to record the first type and probably not the second.
IMHO you are taking a wiki page that attempts to describe the current mess and are turning it in to the law, not a good idea. But I wouldn’t have bothered to comment, except for this gem:
that is literally a total departure from how keys have been treated in the past and just going to end in total confusion.
I’m just the messenger. The case-sensitivity is a consequence of the adoption of mixed-case IETF language tags as subkeys of name:* etc., and several countries have already adopted uppercase country codes as subkeys of school:*. Any confusion that would occur has already occurred. This is merely a suggestion to prevent further confusion that would occur if Germany uniquely chooses to lowercase the country code.
Was ist mit Volksschulen? Die sind Klassen 1-9, bzw. 1-10 (je nach Bundesland), heißen aber identisch. Die sollte man wohl nicht als school:DE=Volksschule eintragen, weil man dann wieder die Bundesland-Relation bemühen muss, ob es eine Haupt- oder Realschule ist. Ich weiß, dass man das kann, aber wäre das Hinzufügen von DE-BY nicht genau für solche Fälle praktikabler? Und dann school=primary;secondary nehme ich an?
Bonus:
Wäre es nicht, zumindest für DE, sinnvoll, auch den erreichbaren Schulabschluss und die Klassen anzugeben (classes=1-9, graduation=Quali), oder wie auch immer. Bei Standard-Schultypen braucht man das sicher nicht, aber sobald da Förderstufen, Montessori/Waldorf-Schulen oder Internate kommen, könnte es sonst unübersichtlich werden. In Bayern darf man sich auch Mittel/Realschule nennen, wenn man in Kooperation mit einer anderen Schule die mittlere Reife anbiete. Für diese Fälle wäre es gut, den dort vor Ort erreichbaren Schulabschluss angeben zu können. In Berlin und Brandenburg fängt das Gymnasium in der Regel ab Klasse 7 an, allerdings gibt es einige, die auch 5-12, bzw. 5-13 anbieten. Auch hier wäre es gut, wenn man diese Feinheit erfassen kann.
Viele Realschulen und Gymnasien bieten zusätzlich zum normalen Lehrbetrieb auch Abendrealschule und Abendgymnasium an. So etwas sollte dann wohl auch als Extra-Tag möglich sein und nicht nur als separate Schulform.
There is essentially no use of upper case country codes outside of ref keys and that is mainly due to our UK colleagues being stubbornly daft and forgetting that OSM is a geographic data base (this was pointed out to them at the time).
It is really a bad idea promoting further use of this silliness. For all means if country specific -values- are needed, prefix them with a country code, there is no issue with that. And it would be a lot more consistent then the scheme proposed here that requires case sensitive keys, but is likely relying on case insensitive handling of the values (because German noun capitalisation).
PS: the thing is if you use country values in iso locales, they are still unique even when case isn’t considered (for example de-DE).
There’s also some precedent in how the French-speaking communities have adopted country subkeys to classify schools, in essentially the same situation that this community finds itself. school:FR has had tens of thousands of uses for the last decade, but school:CD etc. are relatively new, so you may still have an opportunity to convince them that there’s a problem.
Personally, I would be tempted to use those same country codes as value namespaces instead of subkeys, similar to the type:maxspeed or zone:maxspeed values. Country- or region-specific school=* values wouldn’t cause any immediate problems, since no data consumer depends on this key (other than some MapComplete themes). In the future, a data consumer that needs to compare equivalent schools across countries can simply associate school=DE:* values with the correct ISCED levels. But so far, only one Realschule has been tagged in this manner.
je mehr man das noch kaum genutzte school:DE beschreibt um so mehr sieht es so aus als wäre das ein brauchbares tag, aber die Analogie zum weitverbreiteten school:FR trägt nicht weil Frankreichs System zentralistisch organisiert ist und Deutschlands föderal.