Adding toll gate id tag for further processing

General talk Tagging general discussion
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In Singapore (and likely in other countries as well), each ERP gantry (a type of toll gate) is assigned a unique ID, which can be used to look up toll information. Currently, nodes representing toll gates in OSM only have tags like barrier and name, but I would like to add a tag like gantry_id to facilitate further processing in applications. I already have the list of ERP gantries that support automatic payments in Singapore, along with their locations. For example, in the case of this node, the gantry ID would be 67. Reference: Annex D of the LTA DataMall API User Guide.

Would there be any issues with adding this tag? Or if there is a more generalized approach, I would appreciate any suggestions.

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Have a look at Key:ref - OpenStreetMap Wiki to get an impression of how issues like yours have been handled before.

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From what you write, it seems the “natural home” for the gantry id would be ref on the gantry object.

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Thank you, both Richard and dieterdreist. Definitely “ref” is the one fits this purpose. If I want to be more specific not just make a ‘ref’ tag only, is it okay to add namespace like ‘ref:SG:gantry’?

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No need unless there are special concerns. Even then, you have to think about eg ref:SG:LTA= , so only do it when you can consider the whole database comprehensively. I would focus on handling “Zone ID” somehow.
How did you solve the attribution and indemnity requirement of the Singapore Open Data Licence? I see iD has 2 layers with it, but can’t find any info.

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Can you explain “attribution and indemnity requirement” in more detail? If there’s any restriction to use their gantry ID (actually the ‘number’ in their doc) , I want to solve it first or give up.

And I also cannot get clearly what “ID has 2 layers with it” means
 Could you also explain it more? Thanks.

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There needs to be a waiver on the attribution (OSM can only credit all contributors on the website or wiki, not all every copy of the data), and indemnity requirement (OSM Foundation can’t “indemnify the Agency against all liabilities, damages, costs (including legal costs) and expenses”, from my understanding) LTA | Singapore Open Data Licence [version 1.0]
The iD editing software has 2 OneMap layers available for use, as listed from ELI. There doesn’t seem to be record of how they are obtained @bhousel Add Singapore-OneMap and Singapore-Landlot · osmlab/editor-layer-index@c733a54 · GitHub
However in either case, I have been wondering how do identifiers stand in database rights. They are used to link to the resource. In the sense of linking to a website by URL, I don’t understand whether it automatically violates copyrights if you don’t copy other data.

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I understand your point, but I also can’t come up with a reason why simply adding a gantry number to the node would violate copyright. Let me look into this further, maybe by asking the LTA.

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I received a response from LTA regarding this topic.

Hi Jay,

You may proceed to upload ERP Gantries info.

Please take note of the Singapore Open Data Licence and the Terms of Service for API .

Thank you.

Regards,

LTA DataMall Team

It seems that it is okay to add ‘ref’ data to nodes.

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Can’t know what “you may proceed” to do without reading your original email. You were asked to “take note” of the ODL. There’s no explicit waiver.
For other’s reference on what I’m asking about indemnity, besides attribution Licence/Licence Compatibility - OpenStreetMap Foundation
So the question is does copying identifiers from an (incompatible) dataset (for the purpose of linking to it, and cross-reference) violates any copyrights. Maybe o put it as an extreme case, can you (deep) link to Google Maps on OSM? Not whether it should be done, but whether it is legal. It can already be relegated to wikidata= Google Maps Customer ID - Wikidata

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FYI, this is the mail I sent to the LTA.

May I ask if it is permissible to upload the information of the ERP Gantries listed in Annex D of the LTA API user guide to OpenStreetMap? Specifically, I would like to register the ERP Gantry numbers and zone IDs. I believe that doing so would allow us to create more useful information by utilizing the ERP data available on OpenStreetMap for applications.

I had raised this question on the OpenStreetMap forum, and the feedback I received suggested that it might be necessary to check the data copyright. Here is the link to the forum discussion: https://community.openstreetmap.org/t/adding-toll-gate-id-tag-for-further-processing/120273/1

For this reason, I am reaching out to seek your confirmation. Thank you for your attention to this matter.

Hope this helps your understanding the context.

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The question of whether the indemnity and attribution requirement needs to be followed by OSM wasn’t raised specifically. The sender could be a clueless intern with no knowledge of copyright, that simply tells you to follow the established rules, without even reading the post here. So they didn’t really give any more answer than what we knew beforehand.

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These are somewhat exhausting experiences when making contributions to data. Honestly, I don’t think this is even a topic I need to post here, and I cannot even understand the terms you’re using, as I’m a newbie to these copyright issues.

If you think this is not the answer you are concerned about, you could contact the LTA through LTA | Contact Us. Since the LTA is a government agency, I expect a delay of several weeks to get an answer like this, so I don’t want to spend time on this matter as it is time-consuming.

I will stop here, so please go ahead and ask them about your concerns.

And FYI, I have already checked with a former LTA employee, and he said that the LTA would not have an intern reply to this type of question publicly.

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I’m sorry, but you are ultimately responsible for ensuring the dataset you want to add to OSM has a compatible license. I don’t need the answer. I’m suggesting you need it. I don’t know law either, but I have to look them up when I explore what datasets are usable, whether I like it or not.
If they had checked with their legal team, I wonder what “please take note” means. To summarize, the ODL has 2 issues

  • Attribution: " You must include in your products, applications or websites that Use the datasets, a conspicuous notice acknowledging the source of the datasets and including a link to the most recent version of this Licence"
  • Indemnity: “You shall indemnify the Agency against all liabilities, damages, costs (including legal costs) and expenses arising directly or indirectly from” legal claims.

These 2 clauses has explicitly been said to be incompatible with OSM. Therefore a waiver should be required, when you are considered to be “using” it.
Otherwise, you would rely on creating a legal question yourself by claiming adding identifiers from a database is a form of deep-linking. Perhaps fine, and they won’t care. But that may not fulfill Whiter than white - OpenStreetMap Wiki expected by OSM. (What’s the limit? If an API for some facilities or PoI accepts names in queries, can I copy the names too by claiming it’s an identifier and a form of linking?)
Even if it’s not legally required in the end, by “please take note”, maybe they hope you would credit them anyway. That’s for good manners and courtesy.
Besides, when you make reference to them, it may create doubts that OSM has copied from them in other aspects. That’s not reassuring.

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I would say go ahead, and thank you for your contributions to OSM!

In my understanding, the Singaporean community has been long using LTA data (Add sheltered walkways in Singapore - OpenStreetMap Wiki), with permission from them, and other data licensed with Singapore Open Data Licence.

If there is a problem with that, perhaps this is a discussion to another topic, to study how to gather and revert everything done under imagery from OneMap and from LTA data.

Edit: perhaps it’s time to create an entry here, since local community is using their data for so long: Contributors - OpenStreetMap Wiki. And please use the form they state on their license:

[Contains information from {name of dataset} accessed on {date of access of dataset} from {source of data} which is made available under the terms of the Singapore Open Data Licence version 1.0 {URL link to licence}]

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It seems on-topic to discuss whether a licence is suitable when someone wants to add data from it. Ideally, avoid adding more potentially incompatible data in the first place. Aside from missing the attribution now, the import email asked about “the required credits”, which would mean the attribution required on all copies of the data from them, not OSM’s waived attribution. The email didn’t ask about the indemnity either.
I found a post that I want to look for Is it OK to link to external datasets on incompatible licences? - #7 by tekim
Social media is not exactly the same, as the managing businesses publicly advertise and promote them. The closer comparison there might be automatically generated pages, and locations, for checking-in. But id in a database is yet stored inside.
Considering facts can’t be copyrighted, and assuming id numbers can’t (unlike 1 comment, and 1 question in that post), there’s still the question on database rights (there may not be, as id is assigned in the “creation of the data”; I also read there’s a different “database copyright”), and whether the licence needs to be respected. If we asked about adding id, does them telling us to “take note” still means we should follow it anyway?

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Of course licensing compatibility is important, no one is saying the opposite. The main question here is: is LTA data available to be used?

Many mappers, for so long, have been doing that, with explicit permission from them. It didn’t seem enough for you, so the OP here sent another email, and got another positive answer.

Let’s not forget cultural differences. For example, the “official waiver” template that often is required by OSM is almost never applied in Brazil. Why is that? Because public servants have more important stuff to do instead of doing rounds and rounds of back-and-forth until the formal document is signed by the president (or whatever authority required by OSM). One official email, confirmed by someone there, is more than enough (and from LTA we have 2 emails already).

You can argue about “it could be an intern answering that question”. Which is usually totally untrue. I don’t know the situation in Singapore, but in some countries, if a public servant says something, it has to be true, otherwise they can face legal consequences.

Also, please don’t compare the “wither that white” with this situation. OP has the explicit permission from them, there is nothing grey here.

The question was really clear: can I use your X and Y data into OSM?
The answer was also really clear: yes, you may proceed.

If you think this is not enough, please bring this situation to the licensing WG. If they find LTA permission is not enough, then all LTA data should be wiped from OSM, including the ones drawn using Singaporean imagery.

To the OP: I recommend screenshot the email and upload it to wiki. Also please create an entry at Contributors page. Example: File:Autorizacao TSE.pdf - OpenStreetMap Wiki

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You are overlooking what I want to point out. In both cases, the reply is yes on the surface, but with “required credits” mentioned at first, and “take note of” the ODL now. I was asking whether “take note” means the ODL should be followed. The permissions come with additional context. You can’t read the “yes” only, and ignore the rest. Saying you can do something doesn’t necessarily mean you don’t have to follow other rules that may still apply. It may be that yes, you can upload to OSM, but you still need to comply with the licence, meaning this is dubious.
The “intern” scenario is simply a common concept to remind us to be aware there’s the possibility that the person responding may not have full knowledge and authority to answer. That’s a risk of human error, bureaucratic failure, etc, which it’s perhaps well-known Singapore doesn’t suffer from these issues much. Yes, I have at least heard of the concept of legitimate expectation, etc. What I also saw in other emails is the authority may mention they have checked with the appropriate departments (legal), and explain things more clearly. Then does this presumably well-thought and approved “take note” means you only need to read and be informed about the ODL, or you still need to follow it strictly?

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I was almost out for a week due to being busy. After reviewing all the concerns, I feel that worrying too much at the beginning isn’t helpful. Maybe I can try uploading one or two datasets and query the LTA again to check my changes seems no problem.