Zulässige Mitglieder einer Fahrradroute

Ich trage nur ein was vor Ort ersichtlich ist - da sind es teilweise nur Abschnitte.
Sicher könnte man von der Tafel den Verlauf übertragen - oder man nimmt die Webseite.
Ich finde es sogar gut, wenn Teile fehlen, vielleicht fährt jemand dann extra diesen fehlenden Teil zu Dokumentation.

Hier die betreffenden Changeset Kommentare:

https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/13172092

Ich habe den CS auch kommentiert.
Sicher kann man noch zusätzlich zu den Mühlengebäuden einen node als POI für die Relation anlegen - doch das wäre auch nicht richtig. Und die Mühle nur als POI und nicht als Gebäude?
Schaut doch einfach einmal eine Routenbeschreibung an, was dort enthalten ist. Bei der Mühlentour sind es nun einmal die Mühlen, die ich besuchen möchte - mit dem Fahrrad.

Warum stört den jemanden diese Angaben in einer Relation?

z.B. hier ist es nicht störend:
https://cycling.waymarkedtrails.org/#route?id=2424311&map=13!51.1989!14.6599

Und in einer gpx-Datei kann ich die Punkte und Kurz-Wege (Gebäude) entfernen und nutze nur die Wegstrecke für die Planung - wenn es so wichtig ist:


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EDIT:

Die Hausumrisse werden als Routenanteil im gpx Format heruntergeladen und dem Radler zur Umfahrung der Mühlen angeboten. Das ist mindestens unschön.

signposts und andere nodes (Bänke, viewpoints) werden übrigens offenbar überhaupt nicht berücksichtigt, weder bei Waymarked Trails noch bei Osmand. Vielleicht gibt es andere Apps, die das machen?

Das ist für den Hobby Radler sicher keine Option.

Na das ist doch ein Argument! Ich werde die Relation ändern. Vielen Dank für die Hinweise. :slight_smile:
Für alle die noch wissen möchten wie so eine MühlenStation aussieht: https://www.gpsies.com/pictures/ce/large/cenkqknmdmbtldlh_large_0014.jpg VG Pirolina

Nur in der Kartenanzeige stört es nicht, sobald Du aber z.B. das Höhenprofil öffnest oder die berechnete Streckenlänge ansiehst, wirst Du sehen, dass waymarkedtrails mit den Daten dieser Relation nicht viel anfangen kann (In die Länge werden z.B. auch die Häuserumrisse, der zu Relation hinzufügten Gebäude, einfach hinzuaddiert).

Infotafeln, die extra und nur für die eine Radroute aufgestellt wurden, finde ich als Member OK. Ein Gebäude, das nicht extra für die Radroute gebaut wurde, gehört aus meiner Sicht nicht in eine Radroute.

Wenn man sich die gpx runterladen kann - kann man auch die Hausumrisse in der Datei einfach löschen und nur die Route-gpx nutzen - siehe Beispiel oben.

Unschön fände ich zum Beispiel bei der Mühlenroute nicht auf die Mühle hingewiesen zu werden.

Siehe https://cycling.waymarkedtrails.org/#route?id=2424311&map=17!51.2034!14.6483 - ich kann doch entscheiden, diesen “extra_way” der Mühle zu nutzen oder nicht?

Wenn sie dir als Hobbyradler in der gpx mit angeboten werden kannst du doch entscheiden, ob du dieses “Objekt” umfahren möchtest.
Mir als Hobbyradler würde die Mühle als Bestandteil der Mühlenroute z.B. als Fotoobjekt fehlen.

Es sind doch keine Fehler - die unbedingt zu korrigieren sind - da gibt es viel mehr Probleme und Problemchen.

@Pirolina - ich würde die Relation so belassen.

Ok - wenn die 100 oder 200 m bei den 32 km stören.
Und im Höhenprofil sehe ich auch auf welcher Höhe die Mühle liegt und sehe auch das Höhenprofil des Wegverlaufes. Unschön ist das die Angabe auf der Tabellenachse nicht passt - lässt sich vielleicht ändern.

Na gut - wenn “so viele” der Meinung sind das es falsch ist …

Ich wäre hier auch explizit dafür, mit dem Role-Tag der Relation zu arbeiten und wie hier z.B. für Gebäude, Infotafeln und Wegweiser entsprechende Role-Angaben zu machen. Wiki sagt aus, daß wenn Role leer ist, die Objekte die Wegstrecke als solches kennzeichnen: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Relation:route&uselang=de#Members und https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:route%3Dbicycle#Members Eigentlich kann man dann annehmen, daß alle anderen Objekte mit einer Role Angabe (egal welcher, aber ungleich forward/backward) z.B. für solche Höhenprofile nicht mit verarbeitet werden sollen…

Gerade dieses Mühlenbeispiel ist sehr gut und zeigt den mitunter enthaltenen Informationsgehalt solcher Routen, den ich auch nicht würde vermissen wollen…

Sven

Die gehören nicht zur eigentlichen Route.
Auswertungen sollten nichts desto trotz nur Member mit role oder als zur Route zugehörig annehmen.

Hab nun eine Relation type=site mit den Mühlen erstellt. Aktuell bin ich mit dem Ergebnis noch nicht ganz zufrieden. :frowning: Gibt es irgendwo ein Beispiel wie man es besser machen könnte?

Habe nun in der site Relation den Gebäuden die Rolle POI vergeben und nun stimmt schon mal das Höhenprofil.

Kannst Du einem Laien mal erklären, wie das geht?
Wie sieht so eine gpx-Datei mit und ohne Hausumrisse aus und wie erkennst Du die Hausumringe und wie löscht Du diese?

Also wenn ich bei https://cycling.waymarkedtrails.org/#route?id=2424311&map=17!51.2034!14.6483 die gpx-Ausgabe nutze, ist aus der Relation nur den gpx-Track der Route als solches enthalten: https://cycling.waymarkedtrails.org/api/details/relation/2424311/gpx War das vor den jüngsten Edits auch schon so? Ich glaube ja. Auf Alle Fälle ist aber da ein Filter drin, der bestimmte Elemente der Relation rausschmeißt… wenn es da möglich ist, dann sollte es auch bei anderen Auswertungen möglich sein…

Sven

Nein war es nicht - siehe Bild von Andreas Binder. Leider habe ich das gpx nicht gespeichert. Da waren die “Gebäude” als kurze tracks mit drin. Deshalb war ja auch mein Vorschlag, das gpx zu ändern - wer es unbedingt ohne die “kleinen ways” möchte - einfach im Texteditor öffnen - und den track aus den Metadaten ausschneiden zwischen:
-
Die Gebäude-ways sind genauso aufgebaut.

Zu dem Filter: Ich würde sagen Sarah Hoffmann (oder www.topografix.com) lässt einfach die node raus. Einfach einmal - auch zu den (ungenauen) Höhenprofilen und sonstigen Technische Einzelheiten auf der https://cycling.waymarkedtrails.org/help/about nachschauen.
In OSM werden alle Bestandteile der Relation angezeigt.

Ein Beispiel mit Gebäude ist z.B. noch hier:
https://hiking.waymarkedtrails.org/#route?id=3574475&map=16!51.1627!14.1305

Dort ist die Hütte “Schloßblick” als way enthalten, im Höhenprofil ganz rechts.

Wenn man das gpx im Editor öffnet, ist ganz oben der track des Rundweges, gefolgt vom track Zu- und Abgang und dem track der Hütte.

Natürlich kann man die Relationen so gestalten, das nur die tracks der Wege enthalten sind. M.E. gehen dann aber die betreffenden “kleinen ways” verloren. Es wäre also nur notwendig eine rolle für solche ways zu benennen, die zwar angezeigt werden, aber beim gpx-Export nicht beachtet werden - ähnlich den node.

PS: Falls jemand an der Route etwas kritisieren möchte, ich habe das damals getestet. Also role=bank oder poi oder information. Sicher kann auch der Zu- und Abweg noch eine role erhalten. Es ist immer alles verbesserungswürdig - nur sollten Informationen - wie zum Beispiel die Mühlen in der Relation Mühlenweg - nicht verschwinden. Auch wenn sie Einzelnen in der Gesamtlänge oder in dem Höhenprofil stören, ist die Information für die Allgemeinheit mehr wert - meine Meinung.

Das ist nicht der Zweck einer Routen-Relation.

POIs entlang einer Strecke können bequem mit einer spatialen Abfrage ermittelt werden.

Ganz fehlerfrei und objektiv.

+1.

Eine Routenrelation bildet die markierte Route ab (on-the-ground-Prinzip) sowie eventuell die größeren Markierungen in Form von Wegweisern.

Die Umrisse von POIs in die Relation aufzunehmen hat für mich eindeutig Empfehlungscharakter und damit in OSM ebensowenig verloren wie ein bicycle=no an einem Weg, den der Mapper lediglich ungeeignet zum Radfahren findet. OSM ist ein Kartenwerk, kein Reiseführer.

–ks

Genau. Aber grundsätzlich spricht nichts dagegen, das Routenschema entsprechend zu erweitern bzw. einen eigenständigen Relationstyp mit der eigentlichen Route als member für so was wie Themenwwge einzuführen (anstatt die site-Relation zu mißbrauchen).

Das gehört dann aber in einem größeren Kreis als hier im deutschen Forum diskutiert und abgestimmt und dann ggf. im Wiki ausführlich dokumentiert. Dann könne sich potentielle Auswerter und Anwender darauf einstellen.

wenn man schon die Markierungen aufnimmt (was ich ok finde), dann würde ich es nicht auf „größere“ beschränken sondern alle die gemappt sind aufnehmen