Wiki page for Key:industrial has been completely rewritten. Was this discussed or voted on?

I never said it was remotely perfect…I explicitly said above that there are probably still many issues.

What am I doing right now? What was I doing for months?

We have tag status: in use. Next is status “de facto”. Why should I have to start at status “approved”?
Everything needs to start somewhere, and a proposal is not a start, it is the final result of a process.

And repeating myself: I don’t think it is my responsibility to take every slightest possiblility into account - because if anyone is expected to do that, we’ll never getting anywhere. If anyone thinks this is expectable … then they should simply do it. Cause’ no one did so far, 11 years.

These are great questions which I think more people would like to see answered.

Because the changes you made have been rejected by multiple people and subsequently reverted for reasons mentioned in previous messages.

There are other ways to do this. I actually managed to get a whole key approved, which I think serves as a good example: Proposal:Defensive structures. That said, industrial=* is already in use and you’re working with pre-existing opinions and documentation, which requires more community involvement. You’ve mentioned repeatedly that you don’t have the patience for this, which means you should leave it alone and let other people work on it who do have enough patience to improve the map and the documentation together.

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Reason for the revert was that my edits were accused to be significant, undiscussed changes. This is evidently wrong, especially the undiscussed part. Other issues/disagreements there might be are not a reason to revert, they should be resolved properly by finding a solution together.

What are you demanding from me? You are demanding that I create a proposal with 100 entirely throught out values (no, a proposal is not just a “simple vote”), only that there is a basic tagging scheme for the start, only that we can get some light into this mess? Do you understand how absurd this is?

Then do it please. “Other people” could have it the last 11 years, but they didn’t. How much of a mess does industrial need to get until a solution, or “other people” is/are found?
We can always wait until other people present better solutions to you. Or we can make the best out of what we have.

You can’t compare that even remotely - industrial is very broad, very common, and very complex. Old fortification walls are rare, and a very niche topic.

Now suddenly I’m not improving the documentation? This dosen’t make sense.

If it were easy, someone would have taken care of it long ago. But what you’re doing isn’t a solution to the problem either. You’re taking shortcuts that help absolutely nobody and thereby you’re undoing your own work.

Which is why this topic needs community input.

Indeed you’re not. Build a consensus and put that consensus on the Wiki page.

As I said before, industry is a thing. As of now, openstreetmap data is of little use in learning much about it. At least in the area of my local knowledge: E.g. a business supplying 70% of world share in a multi million pieces market mapped as a craft=*.

Industrial=* is the widely known key for such, am I mistaken?

Wow, I’ve been busy and this conversation blew up. I haven’t been able to keep up.

We need a new primary key for industrial facilities. I think this is long overdue, and it seems you agree. I think OSM has matured enough that creating any new primary tags should require being formally proposed and approved. I don’t know if industrial=* is the right tag since, for better or worse, some people seem to consider it a subtag of landuse=industrial. It also has a quarter million uses, 40% of which are oil which is a bad tag. That may be awkward to work around. I don’t have a problem with industry=* as it currently has less than 500 uses.

Here’s an idea I doubt anyone will like: If you look at all of the other values of man_made=* you will find that nearly all of them represent objects (tower, mast, flagpole, etc). works is one of a few outliers, representing not an object but a whole facility. If we create a new primary key for industry (maybe industry=factory & factory=*), we could replace man_made=works. I’m aware that removing the tag could cause problems with data consumers that don’t yet recognize the new tags, but we don’t have to. Just like healthcare=* isn’t rendered by Carto so it’s still dual-tagged e.g. healthcare=clinic & amenity=clinic.

Regardless, I’m not interested in discussing what has or should have been done. Let’s focus on what needs to be done and do it. Step 1: pick a key. Step 2: make a list of values.

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As a very minor aside and as a purely linguistic observation (I’ve been a contributor for almost 15 years who somewhat thinks in my native tongue of American English), I have always found the tag man_made=works to be highly awkward, unclear and too broad to be a meaningful tag, even as I recognize it as likely meaning something in British English that is found in the UK, other places, and even the USA (in the few places I’ve seen it tagged here).

What this (and other things) say to me (as I have lightly participated in some aspects of this topic recently) is that there are some quite challenging linguistic, cultural, technical aspects of this which perpetuate its difficulty.

I do see people striving to be civil and harmonious (keep it up, please!) yet this is a topic which really benefits from a very wide angle lens. Let’s be sensitive to everybody who has been working on solving this, as difficult as that can be. Speaking from first-hand experience, doing similar sorts of “WikiProjects” that both cause tags to emerge and “helps them to grow” is some of the most difficult work we do.

Edit: And I know many don’t like to hear this, but sometimes such work, leading to consensus, takes years.

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That’s what some people including me have suggested before, including for landuse=residential and residential= . But =works is not unique. Most prominently, there are =pumping_station (not always at a =pipeline so pipeline=substation + substation=compression doesn’t cover all) , =water_works (as well as a dozen of =desalination_plant ), and =wastewater_plant . And something as large as =observatory , to as “small” as =monitoring_station (varies in size; maybe it should have been separated into individual pieces eg =monitoring_equipment and =monitoring_station ) .
I wanted to keep industry= to be a generic attribute for what industry the feature belongs to. “industry” as asked by some above is confusing as to whether it means an economic sector, or only “industrial” zoning and use. A very boring term I can think of is plainly industrial_facility=
Be aware it will become a debate of what is “industrial” again, concerning =warehouse or =logistics , and =distributor . To a lesser extent, for depots recently.
Notes for some of what’s in Key:industrial - OpenStreetMap Wiki :

  • =port : seaway= was once suggested, but I find waterway= acceptable. Facilities can serve both river and sea. It’s not worth making a distinction. Existing ones eg =dock are already applied to seas.
  • =mine : May not be a “structure” for open-pit mines (where there is overlap and interface with landuse=quarry ) , and could include more than the mine structure itself underground (for a reason of not using man_made= )
  • =heating_station : Overlaps with power=
  • =well_cluster : “Deprecated” for =wellsite
  • industrial=mobile_equipment : Redirects to shop=

We already have a primary key for industrial facilities, look at the values:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:man_made
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/man_made#values

industrial=oil is not necessarily a bad tag, apparently it is intended as related to the oil industry, this is how it is documented: Tag:industrial=oil - OpenStreetMap Wiki
It is the most frequent use of industrial as a key (98,5% in combination with landuse=industrial). @tguen Can you explain why you think it is a bad tag? And @zluuzki ‘nonsense’ is not a constructive way of discussing, even less if you are factually wrong…

I don’t think that would be mutually exclusive.

Just to add another viewpoint:

landuse=industrial (without subtags) says something about the general use of an area; within its extent can be multiple (completely unrelated) industries and also related infrastructure such as roads etc. Like most landuse= tags it doesn’t refer to a specific object but rather the general area. It doesn’t make much sense for landuse=industrial to have an operator= tag, though it could have a name= tag in some cases (for example, “Näringen” here is the name of an area with various companies, most of which are industrial).

man_made=* (as well as building=industrial) refer to specific physical objects within an industrial area (though they can also be situated within a different landuse=). Can have addresses, operator and even names, but they all refer to that specific object.

But neither of these can be used to map and refer to the entity “ACME Sawmill”, which is what industry= (or whatever) would then be used for. The industry= element (area or node) would then commonly have both name, address and operator.

None of these would then be mutually exclusive, a well mapped area will both have a landuse=industrial, various industry= within and then various man_made=* and building=industrial within those (so it’s sort of a hierarchy, though not strict in the sense that each of these tags must be situated within another, they just usually will be/should).

As an example (yellow lines are property boundaries):

Here, the entire area would be landuse=industrial, most buildings would be building=industrial, there are at least a few man_made=mast, and each of the yellow-line-enclosed polygons would be a separate industry=.

One major issue that would need solving though is that this risks introducing a lot of confusion, what, for example, would be the difference between landuse=industrial+industrial=sawmill, craft=sawmill and industry=sawmill? For a new user that’s all just “a sawmill”.

I’m aware of man_made=works which has already been discussed here before, and maybe the best solution would be to just use it (for example man_made=works+product=steel, as is already documented for it), even though it goes slightly against the general “it should be a structure” of the key. But is that really enough to warrant introducing another tag, with the risk of fragmenting the ecosystem and putting a lot of effort into retagging?

(note that I’m neither particularly experienced in mapping industry, have done extensive research on current usages nor have read the full wiki pages recently, this is based on what the terms and tags “mean to me” and which I would find logical without reading documentation extensively)

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I think my last post made it clear that I have already looked at the values for man_made, but I’ve gone back and counted. Of the 75 values, I classify nearly all as objects or structures, 7 as facilities, and only 4 as industrial facilities. If I were to consider man_made a key for industrial facilities, it’s a very bad one.

I think it’s a bad idea to use the same key for facilities and structures. I want a tag that is exclusively for facilities, like the shop key. I’ve tried writing overpass queries that return places of employment. With only a couple exceptions (mall, vacant) I can just get any value of the shop key. The same is true for office. This is what I want. The amenity key on the other hand is terrible, as I have to search for a long list of specific values (school, university, hospital, clinic, post_office, etc, etc, etc). This is the situation I want to avoid.

As for industrial=oil, it is far too generic to be a meaningful description of the feature. It could be used in combination with man_made=petroleum_well or man_made=offshore_platform, or it could mean an area containing petroleum wells, a refinery, storage tanks, or a large puddle. It would certainly be useless as a primary tag.

That makes sense, and I suppose the oil value would work here. So what to use as a primary tag then? I guess industrial_facility is an option.

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In British English works is something we see on OS maps, mostly historic. Its not something used in normal speech

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In the Näringen example, the “Näringen” object would be better classified as a place, and within there will be other landuses like highway (assuming these are public roads and not within an industrial property), industrial, etc., which are all much smaller than what is now all conflated here in one big generalized polygon: Relation: ‪Näringen‬ (‪4173627‬) | OpenStreetMap
Also waterways could be excluded (at least around here they would be excluded).

IMHO the ACME Sawmill, i.e. the whole site including everything not only the mere machinery, like offices and parking, could get something like man_made=sawmill. There could also be micromapping where e.g. the individual saws are mapped, and these could still get a man_made tag like man_made=saw, and be located within the bigger man_made=sawmill.

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That’s the part I’m skeptical to.

man_made=* says “man_made=* is used to identify man-made (artificial) structures added to the landscape.” (bold emphasis mine)

There’s no (documented) man_made=sawmill right now, but based on this I’d expect it to refer to the actual physical sawmill structure, something like this (but since specifically a sawmill such as this would usually be inside a building they’d usually not be mapped):

Otherwise, if we start to include e.g. parking lots in the definition “structure” we’d end up with an entire town being a man_made=town (since it’s all built by man)!

Furthermore, the man_made=* tag is already very broad, so I don’t think we should add a whole other category of values to it. Better tag the physical objects/structures one way, and the site/facility/establishment/legal entity another way, as said by @tguen:


I think the most important point of this discussion shouldn’t be if we need a different way to tag structures and sites, but how. man_made=works+product=* would be an obvious candidate since it’s the currently established tag for this, and it would take a tremendous amount of work to change this (both in re-tagging, re-educating and adjusting consumers), but it’s not without its downsides (like being in a somewhat incorrect toplevel tier, and being a term that’s not used in all English variants.

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Node: ‪Näringen‬ (‪135085432‬) | OpenStreetMap There is already a =suburb, and it’s a common mistake to directly add the place= name to the landuse= . But that’s only one situation. It inherently has the same limitation as to whether to use place= for housing estates. An industrial area, park, district, or individual facility can exist in any level from below =city_block (in fact a =plot / boundary=lot can also be the size of different levels depending on how they are organized), to possibly =suburb . They are at least orthogonal, different concepts that can mix or be different.
As mentioned now, man_made=sawmill could be interpreted as the “sawmill” machine itself. Having man_made=saw doesn’t eliminate this flaw.
Leading examples as man_made=works may continue to be used in transition, or semi-permanently co-exist. But the issue is whether to bloat and ignite a boom in man_made= with many now industrial= features.

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that’s a saw. A sawmill from my understanding is the whole facility, not just the tool.

In the case of the picture, the “saw”, to me, is just the part that cuts (the roughly rectangular green part in the picture, which contains a “sawblade” or similar), while the sawmill includes also the transport apparatus in the front left of the picture.

But I can agree that “sawmill” can be used both for the structure and the facility. But that, to me, is an even stronger argument to keep them apart in tagging (otherwise, the only way to say for sure if man_made=sawmill refers to the structure or a site/facility/whatever would be the size, which would be hard to use).

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buildings are already tagged separately, I do not understand which problem there is with man_made=sawmill used on the site and I would also see this as the actual sawmill structure (i.e. the outdoor spaces for storage etc., if any, like drying and sorting etc., staff parking, administration, …, are all functional parts of the facility). We do this for other pois as well, e.g. hospitals, universities, police, fire departments, wastewater plants, etc.

Regarding the “saw”, I could see someone just calling the actually sawing machine like this, or maybe also include the conveyor belts (if any). From what I have seen, it is not unusual to have different sawing machines along one conveying structure, which apply consecutive cuts (from rough to finer) Luckily we do not tag at this level of detail anyway, a saw in OSM (if tagged at all, and already being “micromapping”) would likely be just a node.

A mill can refer to the machine. Eg despite Sawmill - Wikipedia using “facility” in the lede, most of what it describes are the machines, not the facility layout. Sawmill - Wikipedia

Because then we’d end up with a man_made=sawmill (the structure/machine) within a man_made=sawmill (the facility/site).

Not really, in each of those cases it’s one tag for the “grounds” (e.g. amenity=hospital) and one for the objects within (e.g. building=hospital). It’s the amenity=hospital tag that would be the equivalent of man_made=works+product=wood or industry=sawmill or whatever.

But I think using sawmill as an example just confuses the discussion since it can be used somewhat interchangeably for both the structure/machine and site/facility.

Let’s use a place that produces steel instead (Steel mill - Wikipedia). How would you tag that currently?

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