What's everyone's problem with name:de?

Ótzï_fón_GlüϷgor · March 19, 2026, 6:36pm

Hello,

I’ve recently added many name:de tags for former German place names. However, these are often flagged for discussion on the grounds that the German names are no longer in use today and should therefore be entered as old_name:de instead.

Instead, some suggest simply translating or transliterating the current Russian place names (only in the Königsberg area) into German using Google Translate for the name:de field. These translations would then be considered the supposed German name. This is primarily the response for larger cities. So the original German name should be old_name:de, and name:de should be the transliteration of the name(:ru). In my opinion, this is just nonsense, because int_name is intended for transliterations. Examples of this are Insterburg and Gumbinnen, where the transliteration is used in all name:* entries. The case of Tilsit is particularly questionable, because the name Tilsit is verified by Duden. Would you use the original German names directly as name:de for the cities of Memel and Tilsit, or something else? It’s important to note that, according to Duden, these proper names are considered official exonyms (as is the case with Danzig, Brelsau, Stettin, etc.).

I’ve also noticed that small towns in particular often have tags like name:pl or name:lt. Interestingly, these are rarely questioned, even though the towns in question no longer belong to either Poland or Lithuania.

I’ve also noticed a similar issue in Poland (only in former German territories). There, I added historical German names as name:de for counties and municipalities. However, these changes were quickly rejected on the grounds that these names are no longer used by anyone today. Yet the same places have name:ru, name:uk, and name:en

In this context, I have to ask: Why, then, are name:ru, name:uk, or name:en considered acceptable? If the reasoning is that a name is no longer in use, shouldn’t these tags consequently also be entered as old_name:*?

Best regards

Mateusz_Konieczny · March 19, 2026, 6:41pm

some context:

mcliquid · March 19, 2026, 6:43pm

In OSM, name:xx is generally meant for the current, commonly used name in that language today (e.g. an exonym that is actually in use), not simply any historical or former name translated into that language. All the information is already stated in the Wiki here: Names - OpenStreetMap Wiki

I would then say:

Use name:de only where there is clear evidence of current German usage.
Use old_name:de for purely historical names.
int_name → international/transliterated form where applicable

Simply translating or transliterating the Russian name via tools like Google Translate is not appropriate for name:de , since that does not reflect real-world usage. OSM aims to map verifiable names as used, not constructed ones.

For places like Tilsit, Memel, Insterburg, Gumbinnen, the crucial question is not historical correctness, but current usage in German:

If a name like Tilsit or Memel is still an established and commonly used German exonym (e.g. found in modern atlases, media, or dictionaries like Duden), then name:de can be justified.
If the name is primarily historical and no longer used in contemporary German, then old_name:de is the appropriate tag.

Mateusz_Konieczny · March 19, 2026, 6:45pm

Yes, things that should go into old_name:de should be put into old_name:de not name:de.

it is entirely possible that these name:ru name:uk name:en in Poland should be purged or retagged, in such case reporting known problematic series of edits or specific cases would help. It is best to act quickly before reverting gets harder to do.

You can do that at Polska (Poland) - OpenStreetMap Community Forum

Though please make only high quality-reports, not reports with low quality or motivated by things other than desire for improving OSM. Note that name:ja is not on the list anymore as this dubious additions were, at least in part, removed.

Ótzï_fón_GlüϷgor · March 19, 2026, 6:55pm

You know the cases with the “name:ru” format. That’s the case for the counties where I added “name:de”.

Ótzï_fón_GlüϷgor · March 19, 2026, 6:57pm

Who decides when a name is in common use or not? This is always very difficult to say, especially when it comes to smaller towns. Among displaced persons and their descendants, these names are certainly still in common use. But no one else in Germany will recognize them, just as is often the case with the names of small towns within Germany.

mcliquid · March 19, 2026, 7:11pm

There isn’t a single authority in OSM that “decides” this - it’s based on verifiability and community consensus. The example you mention (use among displaced persons and descendants) is understandable, but in OSM terms that is usually considered too limited / niche usage to qualify for name:de.

As already said, my feeling is:

If a name appears in current atlases, major media, official publications, traffic signs, or widely used references (e.g. Duden) → it can justify name:de
If usage is mostly historical, academic, or limited to specific communities → it belongs in old_name:*

For smaller towns, this is indeed harder, and often the outcome is clearly no name:de (because no widely used exonym exists today) but a documented old_name:de.

So in short: it’s not about whether a name is used by someone, but whether it is in sufficiently broad, present-day use to be generally recognizable in that language.

Senihtu · March 19, 2026, 7:15pm

Immer wieder wenn diese Thema hochkommt frage ich mich warum es alle so eilig haben, die deutschen Ortsnamen nach old_name zu verschieben.
Es gibt durchaus noch Leute, bei denen im Pass steht, daß sie in Königsberg geboren sind.
Das ist ein offizielles Dokument, der Name ist damit ganz sicher noch in Gebrauch.
Und auch die nächste Generation redet davon, daß die Familie aus Königsberg kommt.
Auch hier: der Name wird noch benutzt und ist keineswegs veraltet. So etwas dauert viel länger.

Nebenbei: Das Buda von Budapest hieß früher mal Ofen. DAS ist veraltet.

Andererseits verstehe ich auch nicht, warum das Thema immer wieder hochkommt. Das Tagging ist auch eine Mehrheitsentscheidung.
Wenn einem das nicht passt, dann kann man das dennoch akzeptieren und die Finger davon zu lassen.
In OSM gibt ausreichend erfreulichere Ecken.

Ergänzung: Etwa 25% der Deutschen sind Flüchtlinge oder stammen von solchen ab. (ich nicht!) Aber das ist keine kleine Minderheit!

Whenever this topic comes up, I wonder why everyone is in such a hurry to move the German place names to the “old_name” category.
There are still plenty of people whose passports state that they were born in Königsberg.
That’s an official document, so the name is definitely still in use.
And the next generation also talks about the family coming from Königsberg.
Here, too: the name is still in use and is by no means obsolete. Things like this take much longer.

By the way: the Buda part of Budapest used to be called Ofen. THAT is obsolete.

On the other hand, I also don’t understand why this topic keeps coming up. Tagging is also a majority decision.
If you don’t like it, you can still accept it and stay out of it.
There are plenty of more enjoyable corners in OSM.

Note: About 25% of Germans are refugees or are descended from refugees. (Not me!) But that’s no small minority!

Translated with DeepL.com (free version)

Ótzï_fón_GlüϷgor · March 19, 2026, 7:20pm

Could you please add “name:de” for Memel and Tilsit? Sources:

Can Google Maps be used as a source? If so, then the cities of Pillau and Rauschen would also be included, because the German-language version of Google Maps lists Pillau and Rauschen.

mcliquid · March 19, 2026, 7:25pm

No need for, it’s already there since Changeset: 179362418 | OpenStreetMap

No: Google - OpenStreetMap Wiki

Ótzï_fón_GlüϷgor · March 19, 2026, 7:34pm

Then try explaining that to Mateusz_Konieczny or woodpeck—I got banned because of that whole thing, since I added “name:de”. I also never understand why everyone always has a problem with multilingual tags (shout-out to @Mateusz_Konieczny and @woodpeck). After all, we have tons of multilingual tags in Germany. I just stay completely out of it—if I don’t speak a language, don’t come from the country where that language is spoken, and don’t know the background, I just leave it to the people who do. I’m from East Prussia and often attend gatherings of displaced persons (not just for East Prussia), and I’ve never met anyone there who uses Russian names for small towns.

But thanks, you’re right .

Ótzï_fón_GlüϷgor · March 19, 2026, 7:38pm

@woodpeck First of all, thanks for edit 180065041. Could you please restore the “name:de” field you removed for these places, or—if it’s really that important—just add it as “old_name:de”? Please do the same for all counties and municipalities in Poland where I added an “name:de” entry but you reverted it (if it’s that important to you, just use “old_name:de”)

And don’t forget all the “s” and “ß” mistakes I fixed, but you just had to undo.

I’ve already written to you about this, but I haven’t received a reply.

https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/180053544#map=6/50.85/16.26&layers=V
https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/31810041#map=23/51.60471040/14.78143120&layers=V
https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/304337565#map=23/54.43159850/22.08187380&layers=V
https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/304338239#map=23/54.42593990/22.14560480&layers=V
https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/304339398#map=23/54.53933230/22.31132950&layers=V
https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/506475602#map=23/54.69993000/20.90000000&layers=V
https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/512534131#map=23/55.51783500/21.39524120&layers=V
https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/515649585#map=23/54.69827490/20.82276750&layers=V
https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/515663785#map=23/54.69221030/20.99342650&layers=V
https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/829045667#map=23/54.67975740/20.88883260&layers=V
https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/829045883#map=23/54.85363800/20.97893990&layers=V
https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/829045883
https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/829045980#map=23/54.84348080/20.95324080&layers=V
https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/829045998#map=23/54.68594390/20.87519160&layers=V
https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/829046063#map=23/54.86297190/20.93681020&layers=V
https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/829046146#map=23/54.87707830/20.93758030&layers=V
https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/1092159254#map=23/54.65622440/22.21204390&layers=V
https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/1360121179#map=23/54.41924130/22.42715970&layers=V
https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/1438202357#map=23/54.80410150/21.50081750&layers=V
https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/2330547673#map=23/54.69050660/20.80875090&layers=V
https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/2351111671#map=23/54.67018890/21.37080440&layers=V
https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/2366199185#map=23/54.98501340/22.19494830&layers=V
https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/2463658136#map=23/54.36453040/21.97864870&layers=V
https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/2465100465#map=23/54.37605100/21.89025060&layers=V
https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/2465112561#map=23/54.47518900/21.81341000&layers=V
https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/2465148446#map=23/54.36977650/21.90306920&layers=V
https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/2465161867#map=23/54.36717040/21.88660380&layers=V
https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/2468612780#map=23/54.36594080/22.11639790&layers=V
https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/2472569861#map=23/54.91510430/21.18382250&layers=V
https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/2475608310#map=23/54.89451350/21.14540630&layers=V
https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/2484179025#map=23/54.87371730/21.08035810&layers=V
https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/2484184484#map=23/54.85057360/21.03735060&layers=V
https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/2503269802#map=23/54.84641450/21.49326640&layers=V
https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/2503275176#map=23/54.86245330/21.51534100&layers=V
https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/2503277079#map=23/54.82063790/21.52341290&layers=V
https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/2503277872#map=23/54.87214330/21.54231360&layers=V
https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/2503280022#map=23/54.84160340/21.54440330&layers=V
https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/2508801507#map=23/54.88046950/21.76537730&layers=V
https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/2693918761#map=23/54.68833310/20.83511450&layers=V
https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/2696067652#map=23/54.38356410/22.03402270&layers=V
https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/2696067654#map=23/54.43658520/22.02880870&layers=V
https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/2696067655#map=23/54.37763570/22.13361300&layers=V
https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/2696067656#map=23/54.37103400/21.99089660&layers=V
https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/2696067661#map=23/54.36510540/21.90956650&layers=V
https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/2696139275#map=23/54.37716530/21.08028600&layers=V
https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/2706662261#map=23/54.87153190/21.52789400&layers=V
https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/2706662263#map=23/54.86476300/21.03838780&layers=V
https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/9702215511#map=23/54.42237890/22.39701930&layers=V

trial · March 19, 2026, 9:45pm

I’ve no problem with name:de, alt_name:de or old_name:de. If a name:de is moved to old_name:de, then a “new” name:de should be added.
About renaming the places with a German name:

I"m not German, not Polish either ;-), it’s about names in use.

Vinzenz_Mai · March 19, 2026, 10:08pm

Names that are in the list of selected exonyms in https://www.stagn.de/static/GN/Exonyme/020809%20EXOLISTE_hoch_RH_JS.pdf#page=34 should be ok in name:de.

This should be especially valid for the names Königsberg, (Groß) Trakehnen and Tilsit that are very common all over Germany:

Königsberg, the first name:de for this town. There are streets named Königsberger Straße all over the western part of Germany, see overpass turbo and not to forget the Königsberger Klopse. Personally I never use Kaliningrad, it is and was Königsberg for me since I way a child interested in maps. No, I’m not a descendant of displaced persons.

(Groß) Trakehnen, at least because the famous horses.
Tilsit, yeah, you can buy Tilsiter in every supermarket

For small villages and hamlets I do see eye to eye to Names - OpenStreetMap Wiki

I’m very glad that Sotzeling never got a name:de. I used to joke that no city, town or village has got a better ratio of parking capacity to population at the seat of the mayor than this hamlet:

aighes · March 19, 2026, 10:57pm

Not necessarily. There can also be no specific German name existing anymore.

woodpeck · March 19, 2026, 11:25pm

The name:de tags in your list have mostly been added by user Иван2026 (now renamed to 202672372 for reasons I don’t know), either without specifying any source at all or claiming “local knowledge” (for half of Eastern Europe!) and with the misleading changeset comment “ошибка форматирования” (Google translates this to “formatting error”). I have no way of knowing if they are correct and if they are actual names (rather than just some guess at a translation) and will therefore not re-instate them, neither as name:de nor as old_name:de

As for the “ss”->“ß” changes, I tried to exempt these from my revert but some may have slipped through, I’ll have a look.

Pikse · March 20, 2026, 5:42pm

You can get the basic idea based on German Wikipedia article titles. Respective guidelines on German Wikipedia are helpful, too. For most places there isn’t an exonym in any language, and so in most cases an endonym is used for foreign places (can be transcribed/transliterated), this is default situation. As per these guidelines, if it cannot be established that an exonym is clearly more common than other name variants, which is probably the case for almost all small towns, then it is natural to prefer an endonym, instead of an exonym that is historical or just little known and is hence likely to confuse people. The mere existence of an exonym, it being documented in a dictionary or some gazetteer, isn’t an enough reason to prefer it over any other name variant.

As for Kaliningrad Oblast (former East Prussia) in particular, it appears German Wikipedia doesn’t prefer an exonym for any settlement in that area. This relates not only to exonyms and endonyms and their usage frequencies but also to the fact that official names of settlements were changed at some point (Russian names are official now), and that kind name changes, to reflect reality, are usually recognized in foreign languages, too.

So, probably no one has problem with name:de per se. The problematic part is that you appear to use this tag with a narrow agenda to promote and revive any old name, whereas likely more suiting tags (old_name:de, maybe also alt_name:de) exist for these name variants.

Your claim that Russian names were translated “into German using Google Translate for the name:de field” is false. As far as I can see all these names in Kaliningrad Oblast, that you claim to have “fixed”, were the same names that are used as German Wikipedia article titles and are regular transcriptions. Also, int_name tag is actually for international name, should any such name variant exist, not for any transcription/transliteration that usually is specific to certain language.

Mateusz_Konieczny · March 20, 2026, 6:24pm

it is utter nonsense that everyone has problem with multilingual tags
please reread Ótzï fón GlüϷgor blocked by woodpeck | OpenStreetMap - it was about certain specific way of adding name:de, it is entirely possible to add name:de and to not be blocked
I do not have problem with multilingual tags in general or name:de specifically

trial · March 20, 2026, 7:41pm

Not sure what is an exonym for a place previously part of a German speaking country in German: Königsberg or Kalinigrad?
Taking French as other more neutral language here.
In France I’ve heard of Tilsitt, but never about Sovetsk. Due to historical reasons (peace treaty, street names, etc.). You can search for occurrences of Sovetsk in French, you’ll find mainly… the Wikipédia article. And for Tilsitt the above mentioned treaties and odonyms and cheese (due to the previous name of the city).
So noname:fr=yes ?
Not to confuse with Sans Nom, the “name” of Marseilles during a month.
Sometimes the new name spreads its usage in foreign languages, sometimes it does not. That’s why official_name:fr=Sovetsk would make sense to some extent.

dieterdreist · March 20, 2026, 9:58pm

no, these are super relevant — within the wikipedia context, but they are completely irrelevant for OpenStreetMap.

this is interesting, international names that aren’t in a specific language, right? Do you have some examples to get an idea about the typical circumstances for such occurrences?