What 'key' should be tagged for these amenities?

Matija_Nalis · 2022-11-17T16:21:18.863Z

adreamy:

I wonder what kind of facilities you can use while doing outdoor activities where you live.

The Korean amenities blower/tick repellent sound very interesting and useful to map - and they seem to be lacking adequate tags to map them! We don’t have anything like that in Croatia (you’d buy tick repellent in a beforehand shop and carry it with you).

We usually have amenity=bench, leisure=picnic_table, amenity=shelter and amenity=waste_basket (and related waste=dog_excrement, occasionally with vending=excrement_bags).
We’ll also have amenity=toilets, which would often provide toilets:handwashing=yes too, as well as drinking_water=yes (which can also be found as standalone amenity=drinking_water).

On leisure=beach_resort we’ll also have amenity=dressing_room and amenity=shower (which might sometimes, but rarely, appear elsewhere too).

Near bicycle routes or cycling=pump_track we’d also have amenity=bicycle_repair_station occasionally.

(And at the end of your trip there might be amenity=restaurant, tourism=camp_site, or tourism=alpine_hut etc. but that is another story)

But basically (as far as I can remember), for anything we have here, there already exists a tag for it!

brightj:

Technically, it’s a type of Tag:amenity=compressed_air, but the wiki implies that is only for filling tires, and it would be bad if people assumed that they could fill tires here.

Yes. it is completely different purpose, so I would definitely not use that tag for insect blower (unless it also had appropriate attachments to also fill bicycle/car tires).

adreamy · 2022-11-17T16:50:08.557Z

Thank you for your answers.
Let me ask you one more thing.

There are also facilities where people can simply wash their feet outdoors, but the ‘amenity’ tag doesn’t have a corresponding ‘value’.
What kind of amenities should we call a foot-washing facility?

How about tying up these kinds of amenities together?
‘amenity=sanitary’?
‘amenity=cleanliness’?

Matija_Nalis · 2022-11-17T17:36:40.839Z

adreamy:

What kind of amenities should we call a foot-washing facility?

Can you show a picture of that? We don’t seem to have those in my part of Europe.

adreamy:

‘amenity=sanitary’?
‘amenity=cleanliness’?

Interesting suggestions, but I don’t think they they would cover that tick repellent above very good?

also possible related to effort to group tags together:

How to tag mountainbike cleaning facility Tagging help & support

Near some parking areas close to mountainbike routes we have these cleaning facilities. These are meant for mountainbike cleaning so the bicycle in this picture is a little confusing but show you how it works How are these tagged? Any suggestion? [bike_cleaner2]

alan_gr · 2022-11-17T17:41:19.191Z

adreamy:

How about tying up these kinds of amenities together?
‘amenity=sanitary’?
‘amenity=cleanliness’?

What do you see as the advantage of that, compared to inventing individual tags? As you can see from the examples given by @Matija_Nalis , a lot of commonly tagged amenities have their own name that is fairly close to what they would be called in normal language.

For example, would you want to see foot-washing facilities shown on maps with the same icon as insect-blowers? They seem quite different to me.

Matija_Nalis · 2022-11-17T17:46:57.082Z

alan_gr:

For example, would you want to see foot-washing facilities shown on maps with the same icon as insect-blowers? They seem quite different to me.

That is a good point. Perhaps several different tags would be the best. One can always mention them in “related” section on their wiki if/when they get created.

One disadvantage that I see with that approach, is that then those several tags would probably best be proposed with several different proposal processes, which is somewhat more work.

adreamy · 2022-11-17T17:50:56.513Z

Matija_Nalis:

Can you show a picture of that? We don’t seem to have those in my part of Europe.

I think there will be similar amenities.(Of course I’m not sure…)
Image link

Matija_Nalis:

also possible related to effort to group tags together

I agree.
There are too many ‘value’ arguments, so it might get complicated…
Any good ideas please.

alan_gr · 2022-11-17T18:18:31.953Z

Matija_Nalis:

One disadvantage that I see with that approach, is that then those several tags would probably best be proposed with several different proposal processes, which is somewhat more work.

Fair point. Perhaps they could all be proposed as part of a single proposal for a tagging scheme for “outdoor amenities currently without tags”?

Or simply start using them without a proposal. I don’t think there was ever any proposal for shelter, dressing_room, picnic_table, or waste_basket, but that hasn’t stopped them from being used hundreds of thousands of times.

Also, I’m not sure if the idea would be for a proposed “general purpose” tag to include items already tagged such as showers? That would probably be much more work, as persuading mappers worldwide to change something that already works OK is always difficult.

Matija_Nalis · 2022-11-17T19:04:44.331Z

adreamy:

Matija_Nalis:

Can you show a picture of that? We don’t seem to have those in my part of Europe.

I think there will be similar amenities.(Of course I’m not sure…)
Image link

Ah, we have some of those highly-chlorinated foot washers like this one but only because you have to pass through them to reach the swimming pools.

But those are usually not mapped here, as they are not an amenity (something you would seek) themselves (instead, swimming pool is what you seek). Now other examples at the link you shared seem like they would be an actual amenity=*, with similar purpose like that air blower, but just for cleaning footwear (or bare foot?) with water (instead of compressed air)?

adreamy:

Any good ideas please.

I tend to agree with @alan_gr above that it probably would be best to suggest each of them as a separate amenity=* tag.

alan_gr:

Perhaps they could all be proposed as part of a single proposal

I would advise against that. Single proposal suggesting multiple tags is much more likely to fail (as people who like 90% of proposal but dislike 10% would still vote “no”). So it is much better to do several separate proposals, even it is a little more work, there is much higher chance they (or majority of them) would pass.

alan_gr:

Or simply start using them without a proposal

That of course can be done, but I think going via proposal process is much better, as other people will give feedback and result in better tag (and its description) overall. Here there is currently only 3 of us discussing, at is is already with more ideas and better way than if it was just one person. With proposal process, final suggestion will get even better than the 3 of us can come up with.

alan_gr:

Also, I’m not sure if the idea would be for a proposed “general purpose” tag to include items already tagged such as showers? That would probably be much more work, as persuading mappers worldwide to change something that already works OK is always difficult.

As you note, trying to change the way something is already being mapped is going to create waaaaay more friction and thus problems then if you just proposed how to map things that are currently having no tag at all (which should go smoothly in cases like this). So I’d just go with new propositions (one proposition for each tag to be added).

alan_gr · 2022-11-17T19:08:53.205Z

One other consideration that I don’t think was mentioned: if some of these things are reasonably common in Korea, have they not been mapped at all until now? Or mapped under an “approximate” existing tag that doesn’t really reflect their purpose? Or mapped with undocumented tags?

(I agree that foot-washers I have seen in Europe are more like “thing you are obliged to pass through to get to swimming pool” than “amenity you would look for if you want to wash your feet”). I don’t know if anyone is mapping these.

Matija_Nalis · 2022-11-17T19:37:24.451Z

alan_gr:

One other consideration that I don’t think was mentioned: if some of these things are reasonably common in Korea, have they not been mapped at all until now?

Good point. I guess @adreamy being Korean moderator might ask there (or already did).

I’ve also done overpass query to show amenity=* tags (ignoring common ones which certainly won’t have anything to do with this like amenity=restaurant etc) - so it can be used by @adreamy to run it at places which they know is likely to have such places to clean foot/clothes. (of course, it would only work if they were mapped as amenity=* tag and not something else).

It has found some amenity=compressed_air at suspicious locations, like Node: ‪에어 컴프레셔‬ (‪8134118602‬) | OpenStreetMap, but if one knows where to look for, maybe other could be found too.

Fizzie41 · 2022-11-17T23:20:36.316Z

adreamy:

I think there will be similar amenities

There are at least some similar: Tag:man_made=footwear_decontamination - OpenStreetMap Wiki

AB-inf-x-chg-AB · 2022-11-18T00:16:51.531Z

adreamy:

What kind of amenities should we call a foot-washing facility?

Maybe amenity=foot_shower, today usage count of 40x, see:
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/amenity=foot_shower

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=beach+foot+shower&t=h_&iax=images&ia=images

adreamy · 2022-11-18T01:40:56.252Z

It’s fantastic.
Your progressive comments and suggestions are a great help to me.
The discussion has become wider and deeper than I thought, and it is difficult to explain it fully with my English skills, but I will do my best to answer one by one with sincerity.
Since it will take time to ponder, collect data, and translate into English, it may be late to comment, but please be patient.
Please understand that the article may be lengthy to adequately explain due to my poor English skills.
Thank you.

In the meantime, I would like to ask for the further opinions and ideas of others.

adreamy · 2022-11-18T02:01:05.610Z

Matija_Nalis:

Now other examples at the link you shared seem like they would be an actual amenity=*, with similar purpose like that air blower, but just for cleaning footwear (or bare foot?) with water (instead of compressed air)?

Thanks for the helpful comments.
First, there is a compressed air blower or compressed air duster and the convenience facilities for washing feet are separate.
This is just an example of how to group and tag multiple amenities.
Compressed air dusters, as mentioned, are also used in dusty workplaces and to remove dust and pests from the heads of hiking trails.
These days, it is very common to see sports facilities and leisure facilities just to remove dirt.
There are various types of foot washing facilities.
In the old days, it mainly existed as a facility for simple hand and foot washing.
Since then, there are faucets that have been developed and there are some facilities that allow you to simply wash your hands and feet, and there are facilities that wash sand on your feet as you pass through the water as you can see in the photo.
(I am also wondering if I should group these together or categorize them separately.)

The comments below are well understood and accepted.
Thanks for the good help.

Please let me know if my explanation is lacking or if you have any other questions.

adreamy · 2022-11-18T02:26:08.451Z

alan_gr:

One other consideration that I don’t think was mentioned: if some of these things are reasonably common in Korea, have they not been mapped at all until now?

Unfortunately, OSM is very, very, very active in some areas, others not at all.
Even in some regions, not all people who map the region live there.
If I try to describe all the new facilities in Korea here, this community will probably be full of my articles.
As you can see from the numerous pictures appearing in the search results, it has become a fairly common facility, at least in Korea.

alan_gr:

(I agree that foot-washers I have seen in Europe are more like “thing you are obliged to pass through to get to swimming pool” than “amenity you would look for if you want to wash your feet”)

Although low puddle-like facilities are mainly located in places such as beaches in Korea, they do not necessarily exist only in such places.
In addition, I think it should be categorized by considering other types of foot washing facilities.
Faucet shape, low shower shape, shallow puddle shape, etc.

adreamy · 2022-11-18T02:32:10.095Z

Matija_Nalis:

It has found some amenity=compressed_air at suspicious locations, like Node: ‪에어 컴프레셔‬ (‪8134118602‬) | OpenStreetMap , but if one knows where to look for, maybe other could be found too.

This ‘amenity=compressed_air’ is the exact facility that inflates bicycle tires.
So it has nothing to do with the air duster.
Some people want to use different values in this tag because the working principle is similar.

adreamy · 2022-11-18T02:59:24.059Z

Fizzie41:

There are at least some similar: Tag:man_made=footwear_decontamination - OpenStreetMap Wiki

Thanks for showing a very good example.
But there’s something a little vague about it.
The foot washing facility we are talking about is not only for the purpose of cleaning the feet, but also for the purpose of washing the dirt, sand, and dust from the feet and shoes.
It’s a pity that the tag you pointed out only focuses on ‘footwear’.

AB-inf-x-chg-AB:

Maybe amenity=foot_shower, today usage count of 40x, see:

Also, thank you for giving me a good example.
This is a great example, but it seems we need to discuss how to tie together not only shower types, but also faucets and shallow puddles.
It is a bit unfortunate that the method was specified as ‘shower’.

aighes · 2022-11-18T09:27:46.215Z

I remember in New Zealand I have seen similar stuff. But it’s like 10 years back since I have been there. But they have been very strikt while entering some areas. Like need to clean tires. Might be useful to get in touch with the community over there.

AB-inf-x-chg-AB · 2022-11-18T12:19:35.882Z

adreamy:

It is often used in dusty workplaces.

700×933 186 KB

brightj:

Technically, it’s a type of Tag:amenity=compressed_air , but the wiki implies that is only for filling tires, and it would be bad if people assumed that they could fill tires here.

Yes - or in other words, technically it’s the opposite of Tag:amenity=vacuum_cleaner

It seems there are no such devices/stations tagged yet and so there are might be different options:

amenity=air_duster
amenity=compressed_air_duster
amenity=compressed_air_duster_station
amenity=clothing_cleaning_station

TonyS999 · 2022-11-19T12:57:49.070Z

In England I have seen places where there are hiking-boot cleaning facility with water and brushes or boot-scrapers.
My thought is that these are all some form of amenity=cleaning_station which need to be expanded with tags denoting the exact features and purpose. water, compressed air, bug_spray, boot_cleaner . . .
For gaining acceptance I suggest a proposal for the amenity which also includes a description of future work which will suppport the amenity tag.