What is considered stealing from other maps?

This forum isn’t the Data Working Group’s ticket tracker. If there are any concerns about the data contributions of a specific mapper, please take it directly to the DWG. The policy question that started this thread has already been answered to satisfaction. Making this a tribunal on anyone’s edits will just result in defensiveness and trading accusations.

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Yes I copied address phone and operator from the receipt, website from the business card and opening hours from the flyer. Sue me.

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I have already replied that it’s dangerous to copy from google. This is on the wrong building Google Maps

The right building is next Node: ‪Ταραντούλα‬ (‪9621399617‬) | OpenStreetMap

this kind of copying is fine, as far as I know

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Hi, I think everyone aligned on the main points of the discussion, but maybe wording is not really perfect and this is what making a confusion:

  • Everyone is against dumb and straightforward copying. This is illegal;
  • And you shouldn’t phrase your advices to other members in a way that you support anyone who violate the law, even if data sources may seem to be open for reuse;
  • This is done to prevent situations when a bussiness will start paying attention that his commercial data looks similar to the OSM. And at this point there will be a lot of headache to everyone: to a bad contributor, to others contributors in the area, OSM admins, OSM legal team and etc.
  • But this also doesn’t mean that you can’t open google maps during editing process, rechecking collected data is also an important step. And honestly speaking it’s not a secret that a lot of OSM contributors also contribute to the Google maps.
  • However all contributors should be cautions and any repeated behaviour or code automatisation should be discussed with others to check if you are not violating any IP laws. Thus the best advice is to be conscious if you are using any additional data sources information.

I personally don’t think that rechecking / smartly compiling important information from different data sources should be regarded as illegal action. For example some data fields like phones / building height / building levels and etc usually entered in a batch from some third party databases. This means that all sites base their data on the same dataset. And thus maybe if you can’t skip some crucial information sometimes you should try to add best possible available details. My point is to be alarmed if you constantly exploiting bad map-editing patterns. All problems arise if you are constantly exploiting this bad behaviour (like always copy phone numbers from google). And at this point you should hard stop and think about other options. Usually you may find another way of doing same task.

Another good way to address this is to promote a good behaviour from experienced mappers:

  • OSM is designed to promote contributors who create a unique dataset, basically it’s less about joining different datasets, but more about adding your perception of the environment as a local guide. That’s why it is not promoting to use anything except your eyes. Also this type of behaviour helps to be independent of any other datasets that might become illegal to use in the future.
  • If you want to add a new road / track / footpath use open GPS tracks or walk along this route yourself;
  • Do not contribute in areas / streets that you are didn’t visit.
  • Ideally even if you want to use smth like google street view in mapping than collect your own datasets. For example buy 360 degrees camer and make pictures of a place that you are editing (or use available opensource panoramic images);
  • Avoid tools that automatically copies data from other datasets into OSM.
  • If you found a new data source that might be useful for mapping (like database with list of all companies) only use it if you are sure that the law is not violated (for example you know that other commercial maps / sites refer to this dataset, thus you are not the first one to use it).
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In the context of this thread, would love to hear people’s comments on Use of shopping mall online maps

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@beatnickgr You are indeed a respected member of the Greece community, a long-time contributor. That is not relevant to the fact that it is never appropriate to use or cite any google intellectual property, which is under a license incompatible with OSM and thus legally imperils the OSM project. Information owned by an individual/business who has released their business information online to attract more customers/establish a public customer base, that is a different matter. This is my interpretation of your posts. @Mateusz_Konieczny You are right to clarify what constitutes acceptable/legal contributions. In summary, for the participants of this thread, let’s please keep our posts focused on the general topic rather than any specific contributor. The Data Working Group, like always and rightly, will remove volunteered data that legally infringes.

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This is however exactly the (legally) problematic scenario. And just because a third party might have used a data source that we can use, doesn’t make it OK to use data from that third party *.

Further in the case of google their ToS explictily do not allow use to improve other maps/data sources, making any use of google services problematic.

* consider it the other way around, somebody copying OSM data just because we’ve used a source they would have been allowed to use too.

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  • I have repeatedly said (and gave examples why) it is dangerous to copy Google.
    If I say “if you cooked meat in my kitchen I don’t wanna know, and I want no trace of it”, do I mean that I’m “advising/supporting” to cook meat? If you cooked the meat and remove all traces without me noticing, is this “admitting” I’m no longer vegan?? (is my English that bad???) → What really concerns me, is if OSM is gonna have legal issues.

@sirorezka

  • “If you found a new data source” … That’s not good enough, these maps (1) (2) are outdated. Copying outdated data is proof that you have infringed intellectual property. → But these maps are intended for us to get there, so you can use them in the intended way.
  • I walked into more than one exhibition and asked every stand to put themselves on the map, and asked them to crosscheck again the data I was uploading for them. → So no, going to the place is not mandatory.

@WarpathPeacock

  • If a shop’s phone is available everywhere, Google cannot claim we have copied it from THEM, right? How can they prove we didn’t take it from the company’s website, or that we didn’t find it printed on the restaurant’s napkin?
    Unless of course Google has a wrong phone and someone has copied their mistake, can they prove anything?

@SimonPoole

  • I’m still waiting that you either show the changeset you claim I have illegally copied or withdraw your unsustained accusation.

You continue to engage in the same rhetoric around “if it can’t be proven then it didn’t happen”, but as I’ve pointed out that isn’t relevant.

PS: for the record I never stated that you illegally copied anything, just that your statements lead me to the conclusion that we shouldn’t be distributing edits from you because you yourself have called them in to doubt.

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Comments have become overly heated. If aggressiveness between or from any individual toward another persists it will force my hand to lock the thread. @beatnickgr I highly suggest you continue your disagreement with SimonPoole as a private chat, instead of on a public thread.

There is a difference between having doubts (I see nothing wrong with doubts), and your false accusations with the rhetoric that I “admitted to doing it” by “asking a friend”.
And “Game over” will be when you remove your posts, you’ve been aggressive towards me since your first answer.

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It was not @SimonPoole that censored you, and it was not me. It was another moderator. I am locking this thread for 24 hours to let tempers cool down. If you want to continue your disagreement do so in private.

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Topic has been reopened. Any intense disagreement between individuals should be continued via private communication, and not on a public thread. Thank you in advance.

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If I had been attacked in private, I would have solved in private. Unfortunately he chose this thread instead. Sorry for the inconvenience. You can mute the thread if you dislike the notifications.

A competent moderator is capable of :

  • reading a few lines of text, without inventing things between these lines.
  • not starting a conversation with the wording “GAME OVER”.
  • not writing in full capitals (a mod should know this is considered as yelling).
  • restore order (not start conflicts themselves)
  • not use their title in order to bully other users
  • in case they’re doubting about a cartographer, they should message the Data Working Group.

I had to message myself the Data Working Group Ticket#2023041310000255 and waiting for them to comment in this thread.

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Hello, Andy from the DWG here.

What exactly do you want me to say, that hasn’t already been said by other DWG members, numerous former OSMF board members and board members from OSM-US?

The message is not “don’t get caught stealing”. It is not “don’t try and use a legal loophole that might allow you to use data that you otherwise might not have access to”. It is instead to make sure that OSM data can be re-used without fear that there might be anything dubious in it, anything that might allow someone to lobby against OSM by sowing fear, uncertainty and doubt.

That’s why Richard and Simon’s replies were what they were; any use of data that shouldn’t be in OSM (whether that would be because of copyright, some sort of database protection, a ToS violation or something else) devalues the other, valid, data in OSM and makes it less likely to be used.

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Ok @someone thanks for your answer. Feel free to revert my contributions and delete my account.

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Could others have been more diplomatic towards you earlier while expressing their disagreement? Yes. However their is no public benefit to continuing this thread if it is to serve as a verbal boxing cage between two or three individuals. I am closing this thread permanently.

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