Vandal reversals of multilingual names

I do not see a problem. If the name:es is used nowadays and recognized, it can be present.

Note that when I said that in wikipedia they uses the Franquist names, I mean, there’s an actual spanish translation of the town name and is not being used.

I am aware that you know that using “Francoist” in Spain does not mean what you now want to make believe.

I am not a “Francoist” for using Spanish names. I don’t think Arturo is either, although some people think he is a vandal for wanting to use Spanish names. That is the main topic of this thread.

These discussions with the Spanish community always end up the same way. If you get careless, they bring up the resurrected figure of Franco to throw it in your face. No thanks!

I just wanted to show an example of name, name:ca, name:es and old_name or name:1939-1975.

And as I said I do not see the reason to delete name:es if it’s widely used.

** Short history: the name of the town between 1939-1978 was not catalan and was not spanish… was a mix… some people think it was because translation errors and others because it was a carlist town and as a favour they maintain half catalan name

“Something is rotten in the state of Spain.”

I am tired of the insidiousness and prejudice of the Spanish community. It was a great disappointment for me to discover the puerility and unfairness with which members of that community act on this issue (and others). No one in that community seems to care about the ideological censorship of members of the community. I say this because the silence is thunderous and very revealing of the mental universe that many of you share.

I do not collaborate with the Spanish community. I know that in OpenStreetMap community there are people with a lot of talent and good intentions. I still have confidence in the international community and the OSM Foundation. Not in you. I am more and more convinced that the decision not to collaborate with the Spanish community despite being an active member of it was the right one.

Explain the whole thing

In the past some users (wait a minute) NO! One OSM user that has used a lot of other OSM name users to avoid the ban and blocked by the DWG for this question (the name erased is from a city of ~250000 p and is the capital of a province) has erased the official name (this is only in Galician from about all the names of a main road (A-6) in Spain. Also had started changes of hundreds of little Galician towns to a Spanish and non-used name due to dictatorship times (Galician was forbidden). Then the user tried to change Valencian names because there is also problems with that in only Valencian names (in each region , like Belgium you have different laws about language, schools, and official names but some people like this user does not want to respect that). Also the user had tried to do it in Catalonia but it failed because Catalan community has be warned about this behavior.

Then, when the reverts to the initial situation had be applied by the Spanish Community , the Galician Community and the Valencian Community the user started to insult the community. So the DWG had to manage the situation and banned the user. Later that user, to avoid the bans tried to use some methods like erase some correct nodes and re-put them on the map , to mixture with the avoidable actions, then tried to used items in other Worldwide countries, and also started to use other usernames to avoid the bans. Other technique is using Spanish Old names in other languages official names, also in name:es (using Spanish Wikipedia not the other Wikipedias like Catalan or Galician Wikipedia, because has the same problem). Also one of the accounts “Frontesp” has fascist Spanish symbols.

Spanish (and regional communities too) follows Spanish and regional laws about that. There is not the same unique law across all Spain. In Catalonia official unique name (instead of Wikipedia ES says) is Catalan in all the region, for law.
In Asturias every municipality has their law and decides which combination is the official (Asturian, Spanish or Both).
In Valencia there are a Valencian zone and a Spanish zone and these are followed by the laws establishing that.
That is the consensus you are trying to make it disappear.

It’s the same story again and again, you have the same behavior.
And then insult in the other’s users website also (this would be punishable by the Spanish antiharassment laws if the users denounce at the court). Why don’t you attach the message in CAPS you send to one of the Spanish Community members?

You are trying to do one of these techniques (using old Spanish names) and putting in name:es. Aren’t you?

Pontedeume is Pontedeume also in Spanish, see officials webpages like or . Who are you to tell the Pontedeumers their city is Puentedeume in Spanish?
Please stop harass us.

Before saying that I harass you and other atrocities, consult my OSM editions and verify me.
Afterwards, I am nobody to say what the town is called, it is clear that its name is Pontedeume, however, as it is REFERENCED

Cita 1. Topónimo en castellano según la Real Academia Española: Ortografía de la lengua española. Madrid: Espasa, 1999. ISBN 84-239-9250-0; “Apéndice 3”, páginas 133-155.

Cita 2 Miralbes Bedera, Rosario; de Torres Luna, María Pilar; Rodríguez Martínez-Conde, Rafael (1979). «Puentedeume». Mapa de límites de las parroquias de Galicia . Santiago de Compostela: Imprenta Paredes. p. 20. ISBN 8460014142.

in Wikipedia, there is an EXÓNYM in Spanish that is not the name of the town, it is the exonym by which it is know in that language.
Attached by the way one of the various messages I have received and have led me to open the thread.
Thank you

Same argument as Iván: who am I to tell the Galician community what names are used in Spanish when the Galician community has decided that the Spanish name is the Galician name?

The level of “democratic” ridiculousness that some users reach is astounding: since we live here, we decide what names you should use in Spanish, my native language. Not only should the Spanish name be removed, it should be replaced by the Galician name so that it disappears completely from the map.

Again the constant references to to political regimes of the past and the political terminology always present to justify this type of actions. In the end it will turn out that because we want to use Spanish names we are defenders of dictatorships.

I ask the community to be aware of the systematic use of political terminology and references to the past to understand the spurious political motivation that moves these users.

I do not know why you try to forget and do not use the example I shared. Maybe because the arguments disappear. The name of my birth town and that is used widely by the Spanish speakers like me is not the same used in the spanish wikipedia. Please, read all the text and not quote it as you seem is best for you.
I said previously Francoise name because is the one imposed by the regime in 1939 (so no philology or democratic way applied). And I repeat to be clear the name in the Spanish wikipedia is not the same as the Catalan name translated.
In my case the inhabitants of the area and municipality know that Sant Vicenç dels Horts, San Vicente de los Huertos and Santvi means the same. But the formula used in Spanish wikipedia “San Vicente dels Horts” is no used nowadays by nobody. Try to ask somebody for the location of San Cucufato, not the same case. Nobody uses that.
The main topic is the presence of name:es and if it is widely used.
Please, read all the text.

Please, stop arguing about political views, both sides. There’s no fit for such in this matter, let’s try to clear the things up.

The main topic behind this, is about name:xx tags should contain exonyms or official names.

For instance, Node: ‪Fisterra‬ (‪272443612‬) | OpenStreetMap, currently depicts the official names criteria1: all name:xx are the same and matches the official one.

Spanish language has an exonym for Fisterra, which is Finisterre, so if we stick to the exonyms criteria2 the node should contain name:es=Finisterre.

I do not care which tag should be used, but now something is missing. Possible options:

Official names criteria:

alt_name:es=Finisterre / old_name:es=Finisterre

Exonyms criteria:


It’s important to reach some conclusion on this topic, and update the OSM wikipedia explaining this matter of discussion, so I beg the Galician mappers solve that out asap, in order to avoid future issues.

1 According to the BOE 3/1983 10.1 the only official term of Galician toponymy is in galician.
2 RAE (Royal Spanish Academy) and spanish wikipedia follow the exonyms criteria.


First of all, as a collaborator of the Valencian (Catalan-speaking) community and a participant in the debates that we have within the Spanish community, I can verify that Jeslop is acting in accordance with what the Spanish community, for the most part, observed and denounced: that there was a user who, without collaborating and on his own, was vandalizing Galician place names (I did not remember that he also tried it with Catalan). No one defended that these editions were correct. Therefore, it cannot be said that Jeslop is vandalizing editions, quite the opposite. We are facing an example of misrepresentation. It seems to me a pity that a user who does not work in the community, who does not respond to changesets or who does it in a bad way, has not preferred to argue and discuss with the community about how to label the translations of some place names (I will obviate that his first performance was to directly modify the “name=*” to eliminate the official place name and that it was only in Spanish, which is not official).

Secondly, it does not seem fair to me that it is implied that the Spanish user community is not democratic. The reasons that led the user “dcapillae” to voluntarily leave the Spanish community have nothing to do with this topic and it diverts the debate. The Spanish community frequently debates various topics and tries to reach agreements without trying to exclude anyone.

Thirdly, regarding the edition of place names and their possible translations, it is a very complex issue. The easy criterion to follow would be that if a place name (such as the name of a city) is widely used by the Spanish-speaking population, name:es=* should be added. The problem is that this is not so easy to figure out. Although there are some Spanish-speaking people who use a translated place name, many others do not. Who do we listen to? On what basis do we base ourselves to know if that translated place-name really is the habitual use in Spanish?

In Spain, there have been records of toponymy for a long time. Currently, in many parts of Spain with official languages other than Spanish, the place names used by the local population in their own language are being recovered on official maps. In the past, translations of many place names were made official by putting them on maps, but their use was non-existent among the local population. For about 40 years (just after the dictatorship), works and maps have been published that recover the original place names. Before, during the dictatorship, Spanish translations were used that today have lost their use. That is why the Franco dictatorship is named as a historical period, not to accuse Andie of being a Francoist. Even the IGN, which in the past only showed place names in Spanish (and which defenders of translations use as a data source), is removing those place names.

And we come to the present, in which many of those old place names in Spanish are falling or have fallen into disuse. In the Valencian community it does not make sense to maintain translations that nobody uses except for the old maps that were published in Spanish. Based on all this argument, I think that the solution of the Catalan community seems to me very correct: label those place names that have fallen into disuse as old_name:es=. And if the usage is clearly current today, add the translation in name:es=. The key would be to define what we mean by a disused place name.

PS: Although I have reviewed it, this text is an automated translation. Sorry for the translation misunderstandings.


Seems like a good way to fix the problem.


I don’t know why you try to forget that I told you that I was censored by the Spanish community for trying to say the same thing.

The references to Franco and Francoism are not innocent. You know that. I also know it.

Eso es mentira. Usted no sabe por qué yo abandoné mi colaboración con la comunidad española. Nunca se interesó por saberlo. Si hubiese tenido interés, me habría preguntado, cosa que nunca hizo.

Por otro lado, yo no he dicho que la comunidad española no sea democrática, he dicho que el ridículo “democrático” de algunos usuarios alcanza el pasmo de creer que pueden decidir por “consenso” que los nombres de “La Coruña” u “Orense” no se usan en español. Por favor, lea los antecedentes para comprender el contexto.

P. D.: Jordi, le tengo aprecio porque sé que trabaja bien en el mapa y no le falta espíritu colaborativo. Le rogaría que no cayera en este tipo de infamias.

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Local use should not be the decisive criterion. It is already correct that name=xx should contain exonyms.

For some languages, Google’s analysis tools can be helpful: Google Trends and Google Ngram Viewer.

To show this with the discussed example Pontedeume/Puentedeume:

source: Google Trends

source: Google Ngram Viewer

an excerpt (from 2004)

source: ibidem

How you interpret this, I would like to leave up to you.

But please note that even Google data has no claim to absolute truth:
Google Trends evaluates search queries on Google, but nothing about actual usage in the language. And the Ngram Viewer evaluates books that Google has scanned. So neither is representative, but they can show a tendency.

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a bit offtopic, sorry:

Btw: what is it in Pontedeume that we have a peak in web searches every August? Is it the beach, holidays?

Imagino que lo de «por ambas partes» es una fórmula de cortesía. Yo nunca he usado argumentos políticos ni referencias a Franco ni al franquismo. Me he limitado a pedir que se preste atención a las motivaciones políticas de los usuarios que hacen ese tipo de referencias, así como alusiones a dictaduras del pasado.

Entiendo que lo hace con la mejor voluntad. Lo que pasa es que en la comunidad española llueve sobre mojado, y cuando hay tanta agua por el suelo puede ocurrir que uno resbale y se caiga en un charco.

It is absolutely unacceptable for a countries community to decide that one form of names should be like an user wants.
The controversy is not new. This came from after the end of the Dictatorship of Franco, who died in 1975. You can see in Spain there are a lot of laws that saying that, but there is NO ONE LAW that says office form are the Spanish form if other laws says different. You can see on official maps or data like Visualizador Cartociudad | IGN CNIG or INEbase/ Clasificaciones / Relación de municipios, provincias, comunidades autónomas y sus códigos 01-01-2020 . The political motivation behind these decisions and complains has already been demonstrated with things like that > Vox pretende que catalanes, vascos o gallegos se sometan a un examen para comprobar si dominan el castellano or that > Catalunya: PP, Cs y Vox compiten en atizar el falso conflicto lingüístico escolar en Catalunya para ganar terreno electoral | Público (yes, it is not only about names of cities or maps, there are some things from ultraright wing political parties).

The controversy is not official when there are the same people , with same ideas, seeking same unique fonts as RAE or Wikipedia ES to try to avoid Spanish Law and Spanish normal uses. Because there are some big cities that have their exonyms but that little towns are not (except in Dictatorships) . And they are modifying these little cities.
The Spanish and regional laws are so clear in which language you have to use in this question. In some autonomous communities is the whole region, in other zones is the municipality law who says in which language the name is.

Spanish rules also are so clear > . Specially 3rd case. Your remembers would be from dictatorship times to new democracy’s times . In Catalonia some names had change from 90’s or 00’s . Probably you are older than that. The map belongs to everyone, no matter your language. I don’t know why I cannot have the correct name in Spanish (like Vic) rather than older versions like Vich. Read RAE > and now read Wikipedia ES > Vic - Wikipedia, la enciclopedia libre.

Sorry , but it seems it. It is very harmful to modify names to recover these old names. These things remember us very dark moments of Spanish history. It is absolutely unacceptable, ridiculous, puerile, undesirable and hateful to add non-official names in Spanish or other languages with old versions and with no official versions, as the consensus on Spanish Community is the official ones. It doesn’t matter what language it is, DON’T DO IT.

It is up to the Spanish OpenStreetMap community to put order in this matter. Jeslop done that after a petition from this community. I remember you exited the community because you did not accept the consensus of the community, didn’t you?

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It is not about ironies. It is a serious matter and it is worrying to see people seeking how to twist the history. And some people like you treat it like it does not matter. It is unacceptable accept insults like these communities have to read , emails to our personal emails, visits in our other projects and harmful comments in other public places.

You are correct. “The only thing that determines whether a name is in use or not is that there are people using them”. People does not use them (try to search in other place rather than Wikipedia ES). Because if there is no problem to use whatever an user want I will put name:en in all Malaga items. I’m sure you will be so happy about that and can help me to do that. And then I will started in other languages like Catalan. I’m sure you will not have any problem with that. Sure. One thing is the spelling rules and other is who decides the name itself in whatever language. As the Spanish does you can follow these rules, don’t use old and less used names because you have remembered that.

I know you don’t like the official fonts if then it does not speak like you want but that’s life.

El uso de un idioma no implica la no hostilidad hacia él. Y pasarse por el forro el consenso de la comunidad y presentar a quien lo ha aplicado como culpable es mucha hostilidad.

Once again, references to politics, directly mentioning the names of political parties.

Please, OSM community, take this into account.

In this case it alludes to me personally. He says that my memories are from the dictatorship (again political references).

Community, please, do you understand how hateful it is to argue with people who “read” my mind and know my memories? Their prejudices do not let them see the light.

Please, @Hugoren_Martinako, note that it is not «both sides», It’s only one side saying this sort of thing.

What you remember is none of my business. I do not “read” minds or decipher other people’s memories as others do.

It would be a good idea for the moderators to intervene at this point. This debate has already entered the delirious phase, well known to me. @nukeador, are you the moderator? Thank you!