Validating phone numbers in Ireland

Communities Ireland
1

I’ve recently added Ireland to my phone number validator, which shows some 6816 invalid/incorrectly formatted numbers (39% of all phone numbers).

Many of them are only showing as invalid because of using a hyphen to separate the parts of the number, which is not the typical format in most of the rest of the world. I feel that it would be good to at least have a standard, of either using hyphens or spaces, is there some reason that hyphens have been used so much?

If there is an agreement on some acceptable format or formats then Ireland could be included in the ongoing bot edit of fixing simple cases, which is already running in UK, USA, Canada, South Africa, Switzerland, Austria and Germany.

2

This doesn’t seem to have had much interest…

Essentially, how should phone numbers be formatted in Ireland?

  • +353-57-932-1234
  • +353 57 932 1234
  • +353579321234
0 voters

If we can have a single answer to this, then the bot can be enabled and all phone numbers normalised to this format, making it easier to find and fix truly invalid phone numbers (missing or extra digits).

3

Our friends across the sea had this discussion around the topic, and generally seemed happy enough with the proposal.

I’ve voted for option #2: +353 57 932 1234

1 Like
4

There is a problem though. All UK numbers are routable FROM globally but Irish Freefone numbers are not.

So an Irish 1800123456 contact number only works in Ireland and +3531800123456 is not routable from anywhere. The historic non routable contact numbers here are 1800, 1850, 1890 and and they should be exempt from bulk edits.

Furthermore 3 number blocks were removed 4 years back and should be deleted outright, 1890 1850 and 076 Voip numbers.

We only have 2 non geo blocks left, 0818 and 1800

1800 cannot have a +353 prefix

0818 is routable inbound, globally, and can have a +353 prefix. You might pay a small mortgage if you ring it from France and my advice is to consider it unroutable.

HTH

1 Like
5

They should be formatted in a way that can be understood by everyone, whoever they are, whatever system they are used to.

Importantly, we are not in Britain and we don’t have the pattern of area code+6 numbers. Neither are we in the USA and we don’t have the pattern of area code+7 numbers.

Historically, we had something similar to Britain with phone numbers being in the pattern “Dublin 123”. However, things diverged and became nuanced. As more phone lines were added, the “123” bit got longer. When direct dialling became possible, the “Dublin” (or where ever) bit changed to a number.

There was the problem that the phone system was related to the telegraph system, which was run by the post office, who ran telephone lines along railway company property. How much you paid for a phone call somewhat depended on where the railway lines were. This led to all sorts of oddness in remote areas, resulting in very long area codes and very short local phone numbers, e.g. +353-98765-43, with 98765 being the area code.

This has much improved, with most area codes now only having 1 to 3 digits. Most phone numbers are ‘area code + 5 to 7 digits’. When an area code is running out of numbers and 5-digit numbers are made longer, some people have the unfortunate habit of appending the extra digits to the area code instead of the individual number.

This is where the problem arises. You suggest three possible numbering formats. I think all three are unthinking and therefore inappropriate.

  • +353-57-932-1234 and +353 57 932 1234 - a phone will understand it, but why are there two levels of area code? If I am visiting the country and I want to book a restaurant from my hotel room, do I dial “1234“, “932 1234“, or “57 932 1234“?
  • +353579321234 - a phone will understand it, but a human will have difficulty working out what is country code, what is area code and what is phone number. As it isn’t split into blocks, it is difficult to read. Remember, there are no lower case numbers*, the equivalent of lower case letters, which give common words a shape and the brain can identify more quickly. Long numbers are difficult to read and / or identify as familiar.

I think the best way to do it is +353-98-7654321. Yeah, the last bit can be a block of 7 digits, but it beats the randomness and difficulty in comprehending the other formats.

There are oddities:

  • Mobile numbers - in the format +353-8_-__ or 08_-__. The phone companies’ message minder services add an extra digit to these numbers.
  • Phone company numbers - typically 4 digits for call centres and 6 digits for specific lines / services. I understand they have no area codes and all start with the digit 1.
  • Non-geographic numbers - 1800 (freephone) and 0818 (standard rate).
  • Premium rate numbers - 15__ (€€€€€€).
  • Internet access numbers.
  • Short numbers for SMS - 50___.
  • A variety of special numbers 112 / 999 for emergencies, 116 numbers, etc.

These documents might be relevant:

Microsoft Word - ComReg03147.doc (old but has maps)

https://www.comreg.ie/publication/numbering-conditions-of-use-and-application-process-3 (appears current)

Numbering | Commission for Communications Regulation

* xkcd: Mavis Beacon

6

Such numbers should use the tag phone:IE=* not phone=*.

So, phone:IE=1800372757 and phone=+353-21-2386555 for the ESB Networks call centre.

1 Like
7

Mobile Number ranges in Ireland are all 08nnnnnnnn nominally and should all be phone=+3538……….. many businesses use a mobile phone nowadays and have no landline. Same rule for 0818 which is not a mobile range.

The issue of EG +353 057 123 456 or +35357123456 is best dealt with by always dropping a leading 0 so make it +35357123457 as the single most correct solution. It works from every mobile and international phone and office system physically located in Ireland.

No Hyphens.

8

Noted for the free phone numbers, I will exclude them from having country codes added in Ireland.

For the removed number blocks, it looks like an issue will need to be raised against libphonenumber to consider them not valid (that is the standard library for phone numbers, and the one used here to validate and format numbers). However, I do not think that such numbers should be deleted from OSM, rather they should be a trigger for research/update of the relevant POI they are found on.

Clearly there was more complexity than I realised, and I also unknowingly chose a bad example. For longer area codes/shorter subscriber numbers, a single space is used as the suggested formatting, e.g. +353 505 12345. However, it seems that libphonenumber likes to split up six or seven digit subscriber numbers with a space, as seen above. If this is strictly incorrect, then again an issue can be raised on that library (used by almost all mobile phones and many more applications).

I put the final option of no spaces or hyphens somewhat reluctantly, just in case, but it is absolutely not what I would prefer, and as you say, is hard to read. Which you then also mention with respect to the seven-digit block with short area codes…

I see no issue with having national-only numbers in the primary phone tag, I would go with phone=1800 372 757; +353-21-2386555 in that case, leaving the user to decide which number to dial. There are already too many phone tags, the country specific ones have no editor or software support that I am aware of and I see no good reason for them.

My primary question was about whether the separator should be spaces (globally and locally the most common) or hyphens (nationally less common, but preferred in some other countries), which you didn’t seem to make mention of.

9

The problem is when someone outside that county tries to phone that number. It either won’t work or will connect them to someone very different. :slight_smile:

10

It can’t go astray.

1800 numbers have 6 following digits.

To go ‘astray’ you would have to end up routed to a Dublin number beginning “800" which would be a 7 digit number. 8001234 for example.

Fortunately 018000000 to 018009999 is not assigned at all.

11

Oh sure, but what of people phoning from other countries? :slight_smile:

12

The discussion seems to have drifted to things that the bot would not do.

There have been no comments that numbers should be formatted with hyphens, so I am happy that the consensus is to use spaces.

It is possible that an issue could be raised against libphonenumber regarding the extra space in the subscriber number.

However, note that the bot will not touch tags where the only change would be the addition or removal of spaces (except for fixing double spaces or a space following the plus, which is bad enough formatting to be fixed). So if you map a number as +353 21 2386555 then it would not be changed (or +353212386555 in fact).

13

Thank you for everyone’s feedback, I now plan to enable the bot in Ireland.

14

To confirm, the bot has commenced, leaving 254 invalid numbers at the moment.

Everything you see on the website will not be fixed by the bot, so take a look and see what can be sorted out manually.

15

Hi,

Some of them are a mess, so will need some time for fixing.

How do I report false positives like 116123? See phone:note=* here: Node: ‪Samaritans‬ (‪3465668966‬) | OpenStreetMap

Off-topic feedback

  1. Could you reduce the amount of whitespace on the results page, both at the top (one should able to see the first results when looking at the top of the page) and within the page.
  2. Could you simplify the navigation? Having to go through the different levels is annoying.
16

You can report here or on the GitHub repo.

For that one, my feeling is that what we tag in phone should allow a user to contact that POI. In this case, 116123 is not the contact number for that social facility, so it not the appropriate value for the phone tag. The same as we don’t tag 999 or equivalent on police stations.

  1. I’ll have a look, but I’m kind of happy with the aesthetic in general
  2. I think now there are not so many invalid numbers, we don’t need the county-level reports and could raise it to just Connacht, Leinster, Munster and Ulster. Is that ok?