I’m making this post partly to raise awareness and partly to express frustration regarding the increasing attention being placed on “Flock Cameras”, and why unverified OSM data is making the problem worse.
I’m sure everyone is aware of the flock camera situation in the States and the increasingly political discussion surrounding them. What I’ve noticed over the past few weeks is some anonymous users have begun adding these “flock cameras” to various points in Canada (despite there being no clear evidence that flock is installing any infrastructure here).
Here are a few examples (though there are many more):
These unverified surveillance nodes from brand new users (contributing directly from deflock and panopti websites) have been the subject of mass hysteria in several community facebook groups and subreddits I am a part of.
Part of the issue is that panopti seems to render any node tagged with surveillance=public, leading many to believe that “they’re installing flock cameras everywhere”. I’ve seen some people mistakenly claiming the ALPR cameras along the 407 ETR in Ontario are flock cameras, which is not the case at all.
I’m not sure what the solution is, but I wanted to open up a discussion on this issue because it doesn’t sit right with me to see people FREAKING out over something that does not exist. My hope would be that panopti and deflock would be clearer about why OSM as a data source is simply not authoritative, perhaps differentiating what different surveillance nodes actually are, and if they are unverified or added by a more trusted user.
I implore any mappers to watch out for these unverified cameras being added in their local areas, to try lay eyes on what is on the ground to fix any potential errors!
To my knowledge there are no actual flock cameras in Canada to date.
Although ALPR/ANPR is probably in software rather than hardware, even if Flock operated in the UK, I don’t think that it would be very useful on a dome camera on a wall next to a convenience store on a pedestrian walkway.
If people want to use the DeFlock app to record CCTV installations in other countries, I don’t have a problem with that if they only add generic tags. If they don’t fix their app so that country-specific tags are restricted to the countries where they apply, can we do anything with NSI and QA tools to make the incorrect ones easier to spot?
I would rather start autoremoving them with a bot if editor author will not do anything to stop clearly bogus edits, that are trivial to detect as a nonsense. At least I am considering it for Poland where locations in large part indicate test edits, as they are making no sense at all.
But I would give first them time to respond, I am assuming that editor author is doing it as a hobby/volunteering, maybe poorly paid part-time job. Not as their full-time paid job.
(and even for paid work fix arriving within hours would be quite impressive)
That’s probably the 5th reddit post I’ve seen in the past week with the subject of these cameras. If I wasn’t 3 hours away I would have already driven over there to see what the hell those cameras are and fix the tagging. I’m going to check out the one in Medicine Hat today.
Lol, already been removed from Reddit. I would check out the ones in Calgary, but (as we’ve discussed on a couple changeset comments) the two in the Calgary area are in the middle of nowhere. (Which also lends credence to the idea these are bogus…)
Hi, I’m the creator of the https://www.panopti.ca fork. I saw this last thread last night and I just wanted to let you all know I am working on the following:
Trimming visible nodes so the default view only shows confirmed ALPRs (traffic/CCTV cams get bumped to their own layer that’s hidden by default)
Adding disclaimers that this is community OSM data, not vendor or agency sourced, with info on how to fix or dispute a node.
Clarifying labels so nothing shows as “Flock” unless it actually is, and addressing common misunderstandings like the 407/A-25 toll ALPRs not being Flock and that traffic cams aren’t ALPRs.
Some basic sanity checks to catch the obviously-bogus ones, like nodes in the middle of nowhere, brand-new throwaway accounts, etc.
Am exploring trust labels (verified vs unverified) for nodes and a way for users to confirm or dispute a camera with a photo or votes.
Down the road working on weaning bad tags at the source (adding brand/operator) instead of just hiding nodes.
As you may have gathered I am new to app development as it relates to OSM; so I definitely appreciate the pointers and constructive criticism, and am certainly keen to keep improving my fork so as to bolster the credibility of the anti-ALPR movement more broadly.
Accordingly I’m going to add flags for each node tagged as a Flock camera that they have not been officially rolled out in Canada, and (at least for users adding nodes using the built-in node addition tool) give a prominent notice to users attempting to add ALPRs tagged as Flock that there’s no official confirmation thus far and to actually ask them to provide source info before adding the node.
I’m only working on the panopti.ca fork (one man team + college student makes for a rough time keeping up with things). I can confirm that the DeFlock team is monitoring this thread however and I am in contact with them.
Here’s what’s up so far:
Default view now shows confirmed ALPRs only, with traffic/CCTV cams moved to a separate off-by-default layer.
Added a disclaimer that the site uses community-sourced OSM data rather than official data.
Nothing reads as “Flock” unless it is. Also the toll ALPRs (407, A-25) are labelled accordingly.
Flock nodes now carry a warning that none are confirmed in Canada, as per my preview image above.
The add tool warns users attempting to add Flock ALPRs and won’t let them add one without a source (let’s see if this pumps the brakes a little).
DeFlock have been talking about this today. A few changes will be made in response:
We will be adding new checks to our internal monitoring tool to draw our attention to these almost-certainly-incorrect submissions. (We’d love to have more eyeballs on that btw)
We will be drawing more attention to the crowdsourced data / OSM explainer on our web map on page load.
And I am going to look at caching admin_levels and possibly some NSI data to inform a new warning popup in the DeFlock mobile app.
Please do not assume that all eight billion or so people on earth are aware of what seems a Canadian scheme to register foraging or migrating flocks of birds.
At the very least, please add links to the appropriate website(s) and if you can do succinctly, describe what the cameras register and to what purpose - you might find me surprised.
I would check out the ones in Calgary, but (as we’ve discussed on a couple changeset comments) the two in the Calgary area are in the middle of nowhere. (Which also lends credence to the idea these are bogus…)