What a shame, let’s help other to be a little less ignorant too:
What does TOTG mean in case of an administrative division? A sign near the road at the border of the place?
This rule primarily means that if I want to buy a house or a car in Crimea, then I will register the transaction with a Russian government agency. If I start a business there, I will pay taxes to the Russian treasury (and, of course, I cannot do business without registering an organization under Russian law). And if I want to buy milk in a store, I will give Russian rubles, not Ukrainian hryvnia. If I want to find out the population in a certain area in the Crimea, then this information is available in the Russian statistical office. These and many other factors influence the TotG.
If company X single-handedly decides anyone should get “permission” to build a house or start a business in Village N — it doesn’t mean Village N should be mapped as property of the company X. It is known as racketeering.
In Turkey I used to pay in both Turkish lira and US dollars — it doesn’t mean something should be mapped as the part of the USA because of this.
There are some documents about flat Earth too. Should we remap osm as the flat Earth, because there are some documents that some people like to believe in?
I didn’t really understand the example. In this case, we are talking about the country and all the people who have chosen this power decide. If you have racketeers in your city, call the police.
In Turkey, this may be a legal payment method. Russian laws apply in Crimea, as it is the territory of Russia. Any other currency can only be exchanged at banks or exchange offices. Even if the seller agrees to accept another currency, then most likely this amount will already be in rubles in the documents.
I can answer the same thing: if one thing is written in some documents and another in others, then you can come to the place to make sure which document is false or contains outdated information. This is what “Truth on the ground” rule is called.
Let’s consider a real-world example if the analogy is hard to understand: some criminal (claimed by The International Criminal Court) signed some papers, which led to the fact that in Crimea the situation is “if somebody want to buy a house or a car in Crimea, then I will register the transaction with a Russian government agency. If I start a business there, I will pay taxes to the Russian treasury”. Alas, there is no police analogue in the world for this case.
At first you stated, that payment currency determines belonging of the territory. Now you are saying th opposite — belonging of the territory determines a legal payment method. And FFS, how is the payment method defines administrative division? This makes no sense.
We are talking about “administrative division” — you can’t “come to the place to make sure” because there is no such a thing as “this sq. miles of the land are named Wonderful-Republic-Crimea-Call-It-By-Any-Name” marked on the surface of the earth.
All I am saying is these examples couldn’t be applied as “Truth on the ground”.
Ну и чем вам мешает иметь два отношения границ? Для чего вы хотите удалить одно из них? Две страны претендуют на спорную территорию - ну вот и пусть каждая из них имеет по своему комплекту. А пользователи карт сами решат какая из них им нужнее.
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В Алма-Атах много POI дублирующих их никто не убирает и карта из за них много весит , может и красиво когда деревьев скамеек много , но при редактировании некуда точку поставить .
Тоже самое привязывают границы полигонов к линиям , хотя можно отношение легче сделать.
А статус дорог желтым цветом на навигаторе легче видать где проехать , а не просто шире .
Однотонная карта вааще не юзабельна.
Let’s look at another example:
there are 2 neighbors, one of whom put up a fence and occupied part of the territory there, which the other considers his own. But only one owns the territory de facto. Of course, according to my logic, there is a disputed territory, the territory occupied by Ukraine: the cities of Kherson, Zaporozhye and many other settlements. Therefore, maps should either display territories according to the “” principle, or disputed territories should be part of two or more countries.
This is just one of hundreds of criteria by which you can determine the actual affiliation.
If you are refering occupation as “controlling a foreign country or region by armed force” — it’s wrong, by definition. I would say, given how obvious it is which country’s armed forces were deployed to a foreign country — it’s simply a lie.
Thank you, that’s enough. If there is a hundred more random statements, which can’t stand criticism to be “Truth on the Ground” rule for an administrative division — I’m out.
The thread is about the statement “I prefer “Truth on the Ground” rule” in case of Republic of Crimea.
I don’t insist the relation Republic of Crimea has to be removed, I just suggest it. Anyway, Disputed territories - OpenStreetMap Wiki seems to be inconsistent and Republic of Crimea being UA seems ok considering examples of how other disrupted territories are treated:
District of Peja belongs to the Republic of Kosovo, not to the Serbia
Sannag is in the country Somalia (SO-SA), not in the country Somaliland
Relation: Автономна Республіка Крим (72639) | OpenStreetMap Это Украина!
Relation: Автономна Республіка Крим (3795586) | OpenStreetMap Это Россия!
И не надо править, пользователи сами разберутся что кому надо!
Так именно во втором там упорные и резвятся, правя названия и принадлежность.
Changeset: 143662856 | OpenStreetMap - очередной пакет правок на ту же тему, моментально после исправления предыдущего
That user - @Friendly_Ghost - is a regular in the forum; tagging them here so that they’re aware of the conversation.
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I’m not sure what’s going on here. Do I need to clarify or justify my edit?
Приветствую.
У меня есть для вас более показательные примеры.
Попробуйте применить высказанное вами правило в отношении территории Тайваня или Палестины.
После выслушайте мнение мирового сообщества OSM.
И прежде чем ссылаться на мнение какого-либо органа, вроде “Международного суда”, ознакомьтесь с его юрисдикцией. Резолюции ООН пообъективнее будут, но что-то и они не исполняются…
If info is missing from Disputed territories - OpenStreetMap Wiki, you can discuss that in a thread about that specific topic and then add it to the list. Then other mappers can familiarise themselves with the status quo and how it’s mapped in OSM, ideally before performing any edits to related boundary relations.
Sorry, I can’t understand the point of this set of sentences. I can’t understand what are trying to say mentioning, e.g., Taiwan either. According to ISO 3166 it’s TW, and so it is mapped. Crimea is UA according to ISO 3166, ISO3166-2 is UA-43.
I’m amazed at how many active mappers from russian community are here nowadays. Crimea for years had non-existent ISO3166-2 tags like RU-CR, RU-KRY, RU-CRI and nobody cared. I bet it would be better for all if you switch your attention from Disputed territories to poorly mapped objects, such as Node: Сурск (454096381) | OpenStreetMap or Node: Вершино-Дарасунский (295072813) | OpenStreetMap
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В Алма-Атах тоже проблема , студентов заставляют на карте учиться они не позырили как у других и в их понимании граница должна состыковываться поле с авулом город с агломератом , и ежели один линию разомкнул то из за одной точки рушится цепочка район область село , нельзя ли по казахски в вики написать по простому що так карты не мапят ?
В Казахстане нет госслужащих , там сидит глава и не может из за низкого бюджета нанять служащих , поэтому берет студентов для записи в портфолио им для стажером . Не разумею как сформалировать ваш руский язык.
До вас доводят простую мысль - не меняйте существующих данных по своему усмотрению без веских на то оснований. Либо дополняйте, либо выносите на обсуждение.
И да, приобщаюсь к общему обсуждению возникающих вопросов, это бывает полезно.
Indeed, as it is written Good practice - OpenStreetMap Wiki
Your additions can be refined or reverted when needed, so do not hesitate to edit the map.
However, be respectful to the work done by other mappers and consider consulting them especially
As for “good reasons” — you are late to the party for 9 years. In general, ISO 3166 is a good enough reason for objects on the territory of Ukraine to have the UA tag. In the particular case of disputed territories — feel free to follow @Friendly_Ghost suggestion.