Surface fine gravel question

A fairy tale: I live in the Alps. Rocks fall from the mountain sides (especially where limestone) and gather as scree on the foot of sometimes steep walls. They are then sharp edged. Gravity pulls them further, the edges start showing wear, but only a little. One can still make decorative use of them in the rock garden, sometimes called rubble, sometimes supplemented with crushed rock. Eventually, these rocks, or are those stones then, find themselves in fluvial transport. Edges subject to even more wear and becoming shingle on the sides of riverbeds. After dozens or hundreds or thousands of years they reach the ocean and populate beautiful beaches that are really hard to walk especially when the sea over-nurtured and stones fully covered with slimy organisms. Never mind the ice age glaciers sped up the process considerable, completely supplementing the need for ocean waves.

Curiously, I am not aware of limestone in the beach mix. From what I remember, this mostly metamorphic origin?

Well, Kies is similar to gravel as it can be crushed (gebrochener Kies) or not.

Not necessarily - I flippantly said elsewhere that “It’s a shame that OSM didn’t originate in Germany - tagging would be so much more precise :smile:

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Wie du sagst, dann ist es “gebrochener Kies" und nicht mehr “Kies”.

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I had that in mind and was about to link it here … :laughing: … but in fact german language would definitely be better in the given case.

Kies is the rounded natural stuff excavated in a Kiesgrube (gravel pit)

Schotter ist the sharp edged stuff man made by crushing stone/rock.

In contrast gravel is a catch all and define nothing term, not in the technical definition, but in common use. [1]

Asking the top authority for english language the answer is that in fact gravel means exactly the same as Kies, whereas the equivalent for Schotter is crushed rock which is also reflected in company names producing this stuff.

Anyhow it’s too late. We’ll never sort this out and will discuss the gravel issue as long as OSM exists :cry:.

[1] and to add some more confusion someone had the glorious idea to start using the term pebble(stone) for rounded stuff …

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I remembered that, from here Surface=fine_gravel - is it for loose gravel or duplicate of surface=compacted - #88 by SomeoneElse The German term actually is written “Splitt” with two T’s. Since I started to learn English, I always thought it is an English term, because splitting. In German BTW colloquially it is called “Kies”, so much for precision.

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(offtopic) [citation_needed] :slight_smile:

Founded in Scotland, sold to Americans about 100 years ago**. I wouldn’t consider it an authority on English usage.

** https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Encyclopædia_Britannica) contains such gems as “… one of the leading American bootleggers” and “The sale of the Britannica to Americans has left a lingering resentment among some British citizens” (quoting a bit of pearl-clutching in a Guardian publication). I suspect that someone had fun writing that wikipedia article :slight_smile:

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I’ll continue off topic as I guess I wasn’t clear enough. Please look at the top meaning of both words:
https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/pebble
vs
https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/gravel

Collins create their dictionaries by collecting and analyzing actual examples of how native speakers use a word, so it’s heavily biased towards ”what do people normally mean when they say X”. And yes, they do list the geological specialist meaning too, which is the one you’d expect to find in an encyclopedia.

I can’t and won’t try to justify some OSM definitions, but the difference made between pebble and gravel is not random or completely misguided.

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Indeed, it makes sense to use surface=pebblestone for a footway covered with uniform-size, decorative pebbles such as this:

I think that even native English speakers would call that “pebbles” rather than “gravel”, which is usually just a natural mixture of pebblestone of varying sizes, something like this road, which seems to be a track or driveway:

So, in my opinion:

  • natural=beach + surface=pebblestone – absolutely yes!
  • highway=footway + surface=pebblestone – likely fine
  • highway=track + surface=pebblestone – hmmm… did you mean “gravel”? :thinking:
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And when you split Kies you become gebrochener Kies.
In French graviers=gravel and galets=pebblestone are not the same thing.
But you can roll graviers to make them more round, creating gravier roulé, kind of artificial pebblestone. I’ve would clearly making the separation between round and sharp edges.
It"s a simple as writing aboit 1 line on the subject on wiki entries, non need for a 100 message discussion.

You may say so. Witness the deliberations on how round something must be to be counted as round!

All I can say: Too many options make results unpredictable.

editing wiki does not magically change how people used tag

if you care about documenting actual tag use it is not as simple - as sometimes it has different actual use while trowing out definition due to limited misuses makes no sense

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Ah, interesting, « gravier roulé » is that „Rollierschotter”? *scnr*

Yes, Rollschotter 16/32 - Ihr Partner in der Landwirtschaft mit Tankstelle u. Baumarkt

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