Strolling and Climbing - a new Acronym for SAC

Hungerburg · 2024-11-04T22:32:39.972Z

Key sac_scale recently got an approved new value. Looking at the changes to the documentation, I only see that a new picture was added recently, showing one of the upper two values (depending on what mapper puts the emphasis at.) No changes to the values.

From reading discussion that lead up to the proposal, some want to move to a more self-sustained base, away from just copy-catting somebody else’s classification, to reduce dependence on third party sources. And also make this key more general, applying to any pedestrian features.

Another acronym was posted, but my command of the English language seems lacking, I did not get the joke, while with “Scrolling and Climbing” I feel comfortable.

In a perfect world, I’d call it Strolling and Scrambling (SAS_scale), because I do not consider UIAA II climbing, but this ship sailed 2008. And after all, I guess many people indeed perceive today as UIAA thought 50 or so years ago, that climbing starts at grade II. I have yet to observe a climbing area, where they offer a grade II climb. From what I have seen, climbing there starts at grade IV.

What do I want from this apart of making lame jokes? I want openstreetmap ontology be ready to cover what the world has on offer. For all the contributors all over the world. The terms used for the values of sac_scale imply leisurely pastime, so they might seem out of scope for uses outside of that, but that is where the vocabulary is as of today and there is not much hope in changing that.

yvecai · 2024-11-05T06:10:58.339Z

I wasn’t joking when proposing Stride Ability and Complication Scale.
I tried to find words that don’t try to summarise the scale but describe it. Of course I hoped a natural speaker may come with something better, anyone ?

[RFC] Feature Proposal - Add strolling to sac_scale and some further refinements Tagging general discussion

If this proposal passes, I’ll seriously propose to re-define the acronym SAC with Stride Ability and Complication Scale on the wiki. The tag would then not be Swiss neither Alpine anymore, and not affilated to any Club. We will of course keep an historical note.

Strolling and Climbing is a poor choice IMO, taking the extremes, the freshly added value and a controversed one won’t help building a consensus.

rhhs · 2024-11-05T08:03:57.002Z

I remember @erutan proposed hiking_scale and foot_scale. The first implies that it’s to be used on ways that are used for hiking, the second matches nicely with other scales for transport modes (mtb_scale, horse_scale, …).

Richard · 2024-11-05T08:07:26.945Z

In the vein of GNU’s Not Unix, maybe SAC-Alike Climbability?

(At university there was a discussion board called Zinque, popularly held to stand for Zinque Is Not Quite Unix Either.)

yvecai · 2024-11-05T08:24:31.696Z

Richard:

SAC-Alike Climbability

Excellent ! I was looking for something like that. climbability is maybe too controversial.

Peter_Elderson · 2024-11-05T09:53:13.304Z

Hungerburg:

so they might seem out of scope for uses outside of that,

Well, I’m not a climber and a short scramble is the max I could do, but in Switzerland and Italy I have often looked at paths wondering where they lead and whether they were an option for us low-SAC backpackers. I would rather have them on the map showing the difficulty/hazards, than not at all, leaving us wondering. We actually tried a few, and sometimes it worked out nicely, sometimes we soon discovered we were out of our league and had to return.

TBH, when following trailblazed/signposted routes we also sometimes got into trouble, getting into impassable sections of “regular” path (moderate difficulty for hiking in mountainous terrain).

supsup · 2024-11-05T14:12:12.175Z

Hungerburg:

Key sac_scale recently got an approved new value. Looking at the changes to the documentation, I only see that a new picture was added recently, showing one of the upper two values (depending on what mapper puts the emphasis at.) No changes to the values.

I just updated the wiki to reflect the results of the vote, sorry it took so long.

yvecai · 2024-11-05T18:43:44.331Z

what about a neutral SAC-alike classification scale ?
or Category ?

yvecai · 2024-11-05T18:48:09.003Z

For the time being, we’re discussing a wiki edit that hopefully may seems not too controversial. A new key, or a key change involves years of hard work. That could be the next step ?

Hungerburg · 2024-11-05T21:18:17.174Z

I see you made extensive changes. Or somebody else?

Would you please re-instate though the links to SWW (Schweizer Wanderwege) - This is the Quango in Switzerland that maintains and marks most of the hiking paths, they have their own scale and therefore the blurred matching. Note: The colour coding is not made by SAC, it is made by SWW, this something that many seem to not be aware.

Would you also please re-instate the new “exposed + craggy” picture recently added to the “more pictures” section? (Without the reference to the actual grade - see my comment on the poll.)

supsup · 2024-11-05T21:20:29.088Z

I did not delete any pictures, I think. Or did I? Can you point to a link to the picture you mean?

Also @Road_Runner is editing it now, not sure about the link to SWW, I also did not delete it I think (neither I am aware it used to be there).

Hungerburg · 2024-11-05T22:43:42.926Z

I fiddled the WIKI to again show the T5/T6 (poll?) picture and the mentioning of SWW that does the colouring/blazing as many seem to be not aware of that difference. The table with correspondences involuntarily dropped, but what shalls.