Speed limits for ... trucks for passengers?

westnordost · 2018-07-02T20:48:42.000Z

Hi there, I am working on this: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Default_speed_limits

In the Italian highway code, there is the following paragraph:

i) autocarri di massa complessiva a pieno carico superiore a 5 t se adoperati per il trasporto di persone ai sensi dell’art. 82, comma 6: 70 km/h fuori dei centri abitati; 80 km/h sulle autostrade;

(see http://www.mit.gov.it/mit/site.php?p=normativa&o=vd&id=1&id_dett=145 )

Can you tell me (with pictures?) what kind of vehicle is meant with that?

The google translation sounds like “trucks carrying passengers”, something like

Songthaew.jpg1000×665 124 KB

but this is in Thailand, I have never seen something like this in Italy.

westnordost · 2018-07-02T20:56:52.000Z

Or is what is meant simply (mainly) a motorhome?

westnordost · 2018-07-02T21:15:10.000Z

Also, does anyone also think that letter (i) contradicts with letter (h) for buses with a weight between 3.5t and 8t?

dieterdreist · 2018-07-04T21:02:42.000Z

it isn’t about buses (in osm: tourist_bus (key)), we don’t have a key for it yet.

westnordost · 2018-07-04T23:18:06.000Z

Well, turns out that speed limits for “trucks that carry passengers” appear in quite a few legislations, especially in the erstwhile Communist bloc countries and developing countries. Well, perhaps actually in the whole world except for the Western world.

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combination_bus

For https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Default_speed_limits , I added a column named truck_bus for now. Anyone have an idea / arguments for a better tag name?

dieterdreist · 2018-07-05T06:21:45.000Z

passenger_truck? hgv:passengers?

PHerison · 2018-07-05T06:40:07.000Z

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trailer_bus

westnordost · 2018-07-05T08:33:45.000Z

hgv:passengers?

I think that using the column in the access-name is problematic (e.g. maxspeed:forward:hgv:passengers??)

passenger_truck

Also works, but does also not avoid the American-English word “truck”, plus does not directly link to a wikipedia article.
But anyway, I should perhaps open a topic in Q&A or on the tagging mailing list for that.

One thing I would like to still clear up in this topic:

Does anyone also think that letter (i) contradicts with letter (h) for buses with a weight between 3.5t and 8t?

in articolo 142: Limiti di velocità, (3)

dieterdreist · 2018-07-05T21:33:31.000Z

westnordost:

One thing I would like to still clear up in this topic:

Does anyone also think that letter (i) contradicts with letter (h) for buses with a weight between 3.5t and 8t?

in articolo 142: Limiti di velocità, (3)

I don’t think the letters h) and i) refer to buses. Buses are in f)

westnordost · 2018-07-05T22:57:24.000Z

Well, it says “o ad altri usi” in (i). Thus, this includes pretty much any vehicle to my understanding. Which makes also sense that way: A limitation in speed because of a driving a heavy vehicle should apply to any vehicle based on the weight, not just lorries. (I.e. motorhomes, big vans, landcruisers and, well, buses). (But I am well aware by now that legislations in many country “forget” this)

Actually, the only thing I find puzzling is the existence of letter (f), because one could remove the letter and nothing would change: The speed limit for buses above 8t weight, specified in (f), is the same speed limit specified for “vehicles used for the transport of goods or other uses” above 3.5t weight.

Let’s assume for a moment that (i) does not apply to buses. Then, the speed limit of 130 km/h on a motorway and 90 km/h on other roads would apply to buses below 8t weight. 8t is already quite the bus. For example, this bus here is below 8t. I can’t imagine this kind of bus going at this speed considering that HGV that are much lighter than that may only go 100 on a motorway and 80 on other roads.

So, right now, I explain myself this unnecessary duplication by that the traffic law just grew this way over the time, just like any law text. E.g. maybe (f) used to limit the max speed for heavier buses even lower or something.

dieterdreist · 2018-07-06T06:26:46.000Z

(i) is about autocarri (lorries) and not autoveicoli (generic term which includes buses ) i.e. they are not included

westnordost · 2018-07-06T07:37:22.000Z

Oh, I am sorry, I mixed up the letter: I meant letter (g), not (i), in my last post.

So, I think this is cleared up now. (g) and (h) apply to buses as well, making letter (f) superfluous (but nevermind). Letter (i) is meant to overwrite other rules for trucks with passengers even though it is not explicitly stated as such (but also nevermind).

dieterdreist · 2018-07-06T11:04:08.000Z

I do not understand what you are after, do you want to remove redundancy from the Italian law?
I agree they might have been able to write the same with fewer paragraphs, but being concise is in general not a strength of Italian legal texts
At least there are no contradictions. I guess they have written it like this because they wanted to avoid any doubt about applicability to commonly used vehicle classes (i.e. being explicit about them, even if for a superclass the same rules are already declared).

Carlo_D · 2018-08-21T12:39:45.000Z

Magari basta guardare il codice della strada citato art 82 comma 6

Previa autorizzazione dell’ufficio competente del Dipartimento per i trasporti terrestri, gli autocarri possono essere utilizzati, in via eccezionale e temporanea, per il trasporto di persone. L’autorizzazione e’ rilasciata in base al nulla osta del prefetto. Analoga autorizzazione viene rilasciata dall’ufficio competente del Dipartimento per i trasporti terrestri agli autobus destinati a servizio di noleggio con conducente, i quali possono essere impiegati, in via eccezionale secondo direttive emanate dal Ministero dei trasporti con decreti ministeriali, in servizio di linea e viceversa.

Saluti

kalosbarkel · 2021-11-26T16:23:47.000Z

Maybe google translator does not know the perfect translation for it. This is simply a motorhome just like this https://omcmotorhomes.co.uk/

dieterdreist · 2021-11-28T13:36:17.000Z

westnordost:

The google translation sounds like “trucks carrying passengers”, something like

the thing on the picture is a bus, or is there a difference for the local law between these mini buses and bigger buses?