Speed limit 120 or 90?

westnordost · 2018-07-02T21:41:16.000Z

Hey there, I continue to work on this, now Belgium: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Default_speed_limits

Can you help me? In the code of law ( https://www.wegcode.be/wetteksten/secties/kb/wegcode/170-art11 ), I am trying to understand the difference between article

11.2 1° (b)

b) op de openbare wegen verdeeld in vier of meer rijstroken waarvan er ten minste twee bestemd zijn voor iedere rijrichting, voor zover de rijrichtingen anders dan door wegmarkeringen gescheiden zijn.

and 11.2 2° (a)

a) op de openbare wegen verdeeld in vier of meer rijstroken waarvan er ten minste twee bestemd zijn voor iedere rijrichting en de rijrichtingen gescheiden zijn door wegmarkeringen;

Google translate translates both formulations into exactly the same.

escada · 2018-07-03T03:10:21.000Z

11.2 1° (b), reads “anders dan door wegmarkeringen”, which means “by other means than white markings”, i.e. when there is a physical barrier (such as on motorways).

The second case is where there are only white markings, and no physical barrier between the 2 directions.

Please keep in mind that in Flanders the maxspeed outside villages is 70, while in Brussels and Wallonia this is 90. (e.g on roads with 2x1 lane).

Hope this helps. Feel free to ask more questions in order to improve your nice app.

westnordost · 2018-07-03T09:35:30.000Z

This is actually less about the app this time and more to support OSM routers and to find a conclusive tagging scheme for unsigned speed limits. But yeah, inspired by the development on the app.

I input the information from the code of law now into the table for Belgium, see https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Default_speed_limits

westnordost · 2018-07-03T09:44:15.000Z

What seems a bit weird is that HGV may drive 90 km/h outside built-up areas (in Wallonia and Brussels) as long as their weight is below 7.5t and then suddenly above 7.5t, only 60 km/h. … while buses may only go 75 km/h independent on the weight.
Did I miss something?

escada · 2018-07-04T14:32:03.000Z

I got a link to https://www.code-de-la-route.be/textes-legaux/sections/ar/code-de-la-route/170-art11-v15-170 from another Belgian mapper. Busses with seatbelts for all places can do 100 on motorways. (I remember the bus vs. touring car discussion elsewhere)

escada · 2018-07-04T14:32:49.000Z

BTW, car + caravan can do 120 on motorways.

westnordost · 2018-07-04T16:23:49.000Z

Busses with seatbelts for all places can do 100 on motorways. (I remember the bus vs. touring car discussion elsewhere)

Yes, it was I who started that discussion. There is now the coach=* access tag (and thus maxspeed:coach=*)

BTW, car + caravan can do 120 on motorways.

In the link you pasted, there is the following passage:
Toutefois, la vitesse des véhicules et trains de véhicules dont la masse maximale autorisée est supérieure à 3,5 tonnes, des autobus et des autocars y est limitée à 90 km à l’heure.

Doesn’t trains de véhicules include vehicles with trailers?

escada · 2018-07-05T05:43:45.000Z

probably, but since you need a special driver license to drive a combination with MTM higher than 3.5t, I guess most car + caravan are below that. A car + small trailer (typically under 750kg) can also do 120.
AFAIK, this is also true for France.

Unlike in Germany where caravans(or with any trailer behind your car) can only do 80 unless car+caravan gets a special inspection. Then they can do 100.

escada · 2018-07-05T05:48:07.000Z

Most likely a large van + trailer is above 3.5t MTM and can only do 90.

If you are old enough (from 1967 or older), you can get a free BE driver license which allows you to drive car/van + caravan (maybe trailer) whose combined MTM is above 3.5t. If you are younger, you need to pass a special exam.

westnordost · 2018-07-05T07:06:45.000Z

Well, citation from law text is required. It doesn’t help if you speak from experience when I am holding the code of law under your nose.

CouwelierTim · 2018-07-05T08:36:01.000Z

westnordost:

Well, citation from law text is required. It doesn’t help if you speak from experience when I am holding the code of law under your nose.

You need the correct dates though.
The argument about busses allowed to do 100 is a recent change:

https://wegcode.be/actueel/2148-de-wegverkeerswet-werd-bijgewerkt-met-de-wet-ter-verbetering-van-de-verkeersveiligheid-van-6-maart-2018

westnordost · 2018-07-05T19:22:52.000Z

Hmm right, the law I was looking at was from 1975. But I do not see any newer one. Do I have to go through every single “amendment” to find out how the current law looks like??

westnordost · 2018-07-05T20:18:51.000Z

tldr: skip to past the bold text.

Okay, I control-effed my way through 21 years of amendments to the code of law, searching for modifications of Article 11.
Indeed, there were three modifications throughout the time:

1997: increased max speed for motorcycles of class B by 5 km/h to 45 km/h
2007: lower speed limits now apply for lorries above 3.5t instead of above 7.5t
2018: coaches with seatbelts for all passengers may go up to 100 km/h

.oO(Sheesh, how long will it take legislators to use version control systems instead of an endless stream of paper documents with each lengthy “I, the king Albert decree that…” boilerplate and long-winded explanations what sentences in what articles have exactly been changed)

Anyway, after finding this out, I realised that these changes have already been incorporated in the Article 11 document, so yeah, I confirmed that the linked source has the most current information.
Also, giving it a second look, the 100 km/h limit for coaches on motorways and other dual carriageways is already in the table on the Default speed limits page. Sooo, this was all pretty much a waste of time.

Coming back to the topic,
we still need a source for the claim that cars+trailers may go 120 on the motorway. The law text is

Toutefois, la vitesse des véhicules et trains de véhicules dont la masse maximale autorisée est supérieure à 3,5 tonnes et des autobus y est limitée à 90 km à l’heure

Since I do not understand French and must rely on Google Translate, I was asking how trains de véhicules would be translated. And, does it include trailers, or not? (Google Translate just gives me “Vehicle trains”, whatever that is supposed to be)

westnordost · 2018-07-08T23:13:23.000Z

Or did I (Google Translate) interpret the “and” wrong? Is it “vehicles (and trains of vehicles) with a mass over 3.5 tonnes …”?

CouwelierTim · 2018-07-09T07:32:04.000Z

The wegcode / code de la route site keeps what we call a ‘consolidated version’ of the text, so with all the proper edits to give the current state.

In an attempt to aid you, I’ll go from the dutch version to english:

De snelheid van voertuigen en slepen met een maximale toegelaten massa van meer dan 3,5 ton, van autobussen en autocars, is hier evenwel beperkt tot 90 km per uur.

The ‘train de vehicules’ in dutch becomes ‘slepen’ and I peeked at the definitions given in the first chapters:

2.25. “Sleep” : elke groep voertuigen die aan elkander gekoppeld zijn met het doel door een en dezelfde kracht te worden voortbewogen.

Which (and I’ll try and do this literally):
“each group of vehicules linked to eachother, with the aim of moving them through the same force”
So basically a vehicule + whatever it can push/pull/move (let’s assume the majority is ‘pulling’).

So the translation should equal to:

Speed for:

vehicules and what they are pulling, with a maximum tolerated mass of over 3,5 tons

busses

motorcars
is here however limited to 90 km/h

Or in short: the 100 km/h option for busses/motorcars only applies when the seats have seatbelts, speed limiter to 100 km/h, and it’s marked as a speedway, not just a 2x2 with a fysical seperation between both driving directions.

westnordost · 2018-07-09T12:52:15.000Z

And the 90km/h speed limit only if the total mass of vehicle plus trailer is above 3.5t, understood. Thank you