Route du Président-Kennedy (Saint-Georges to Maine USA): trunk road or not?

Hello all,

I would like some input as to wether a road should be tagged as highway=trunk or keep it’s current designation since it is the main route to the US border.

Currently the Route 204 between the end of Autoroute 73 in Saint-Georges and the Route du Président-Kennedy (Route 173) is tagged as highway=secondary.

The Route du Président-Kennedy (Route 173) between Route 204 and the US border is tagged as highway=primary.

Here is a link to the roads I am talking about: OpenStreetMap

Recently there has been a few edits by a user that has upgraded those roads to highway=trunk 1,2
Those edits were promptly reverted each time as they had not been discussed with the community and went against the Canadian Tagging Guidelines.

Currently, the highway=trunk tag is defined as:

a roadway that has limited access and is part of the national highway system, as defined by the Council of Ministers, an intergovernmental agency with representatives from each province and territory.

The roads mentioned don’t seem to fit the definition of limited access, nor are they part of the core NHS routes.
Both are listed as a feeder route in the latest (2017) NHS report available online.

If we go with the definition of highway=trunk from the Road classification draft:

should be applied the most important non-motorway routes that provide the main route for long-haul traffic between population centres of regional importance

My question is should this be tagged as highway=trunk similarly to the Route 138 in Charlevoix, as it links population centres of regional importance?

Zooming out to look at the rest of Canada, it seems that both the Atlantic provinces and the western provinces are all using the “long-haul regional connection” definition of highway=trunk, with parts of southern Quebec and southern Ontario being the outliers. Winnipeg is an excellent example of how this definition of highway=trunk can allow data consumers to highlight the long-distance regional connections while also using expressway=yes to show the enhanced roadways no matter if those segments are part of highway=trunk or more locally focused highway=primary connections.

I’m guessing the mapper who changed it to ‘trunk’ did so to make the tagging consistent with the highway on the Maine side of the border.

My opinion on this is the same as before, when asked about the tagging of Manitoba PTH 10 from Brandon to the border: Trunk Road connection between Manitoba and Central North Dakota - #2 by hoserab

Anecdotally Route 138 is waaaaaaaaay more important in Québec than Route 173 to Maine.

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I note that the user is mostly editing in Maine, not in Quebec. Here’s their edits going back 3 months:

(Disclaimer: I’m not based in Quebec)

Yeah, that would be my impression as well. Route 173 doesn’t go anywhere particularly important, nor would it likely be used as a major transit corridor. Quebec just kind of… ends there, and Maine just kind of… ends there, and there’s very little in the middle.

So this is the main road from Quebec City to Portland, Maine?

Sounds like a pretty obvious case for trunk in my book. These are major destinations and this is the most important road between them. It doesn’t make sense to me that low-zoom maps would show a gap in the road system from the border to Saint George’s.

If you think this is a transit route between major destinations, shouldn’t this stretch of US 201 connecting to I-95 also be trunk?

Currently US 201 trunk ends at US 2, a little short of I-95. What’s the transit routing? Detouring east on US 2 to Newport?

(Screenshot from GraphHopper directions; OSRM and Valhalla route on the primary US 201 instead.)

Most likely yes. I’m not familiar enough with that area to know which of those roads to I-95 is the most important (probably US 201), but since Quebec City and Portland are major destinations, I’m inclined to argue that the most important route between them should be trunk. In fact, this is noted in the draft Maine Highway Classification wiki page which still needs some love.

I would not put much stock in the specific routing given by open source routing engines though, because rural roads often lack tagging used by routers such as speed limits.

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Just because it happens to be “the most important road between Québec City to Portland” doesn’t mean it’s necessarily “important”, in the grand scheme of things…

Sounds like tagging-for-the-renderer to me. :neutral_face: It makes perfect sense if the road from St-Georges to the border isn’t all that important.

Linked in hoserab’s post about the Manitoba crossing are the statistics on road crossings in Canada (with latest data for 2011, but still).

Per Table RO19, the route 173 crossing (called “Armstrong”) was the fourth-busiest truck border crossing in Quebec per data in 2011, and per Table RO20, it didn’t make top 20 in Canada for cars (the table only shows top 20).

The truck count was “two-way traffic volume” of 60,000 (cited as 0.06M); for trucks in Quebec this compared to Lacolle (0.61M crossings; autoroute 15 and routes 221 and 223, connecting to I-87 and Plattsburgh), Phillipsburg (0.19M crossings; route 133, I-89, Burlington VT), and Stanstead (“Rock Island”; 0.16M crossings, autoroute 55 and route 143, I-91). So it was one-tenth of the busiest crossing, and less than half of the third-busiest crossing.

The car traffic must have been less than 0.64M crossings since that was the count for the 20th busiest crossing; the other Quebec crossings were Lacolle at 1.70M, Stanstead/Rock Island at 0.86M and Phillipsburg at 0.78M.

Those three Quebec crossings have ratios of truck traffic to car traffic of 20% to 35%; assuming 20%, that would make car crossings at route 173/Armstrong about 0.3M, or an average of about 1000 vehicles per day counting both cars and trucks. Even if you assume car traffic was 0.63M so it just missed out on being in the top 20, that’s less than 2000 vehicles per day.

Edited to add this paragraph: for reference, as of 2019, the least busy part of Highway 11 through northern Ontario (an NHS core route), around 49.76,-85.33, was 1100 AADT (source, big PDF, page 16 in document numbering). The more major route through northern Ontario, Highway 17, had at its least busy 1850 AADT (page 22 in doc numbering; note that 1300 AADT on page 23 is on a section bypassed by through traffic).

As far as I can see, route 173 is a transit route basically only for Quebec City to Portland pair and Quebec City to Bangor; transit to Boston and cities further south would go through Sherbrooke and I-91.

Basically what I’m trying to get at is that for me Portland, ME is not a major destination. Sorry Mainers! But as I mentioned I’m not a Quebec editor; maybe people in Quebec City feel differently, it would be great to have someone comment.

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I agree. If we are supposed to tag what is seen on the ground (e.g., name=*), I know the road and it is definitely not a trunk.

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Flip the logic around. It’s Quebec City that is the major destination and this the road that tourists from Maine would take to get there :wink:

What would you define as trunk in the context of a Quebec highway (route)?


There seems to be 2 current definitions

a roadway that has limited access and is part of the national highway system, as defined by the Council of Ministers, an intergovernmental agency with representatives from each province and territory.

should be applied the most important non-motorway routes that provide the main route for long-haul traffic between population centres of regional importance

I would argue that Saint-Georges is a population centre of regional importance.
There is a census agglomeration for it and surrounding municipalities: https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/pub/92f0138m/2019002/tbl-mc/mc/mc-a37-eng.pdf
The mentioned route is the major route to the next population center of regional importance

Definition of Census Agglomeration A census agglomeration is a census geographic unit in Canada determined by Statistics Canada. A census agglomeration comprises one or more adjacent census subdivisions that has a core population of 10,000 or greater. It is eligible for classification as a census metropolitan area once it reaches a population of 100,000.

For our US friends taking part of this thread, a census agglomeration seems akin to the Micropolitan statistical area.

In US state highway classification guidelines they refer to Micropolitan statistical area and Metropolitan statistical area in order to determine regions of signigicant importance.

Knowing that let’s base the population centers of regional importance on CMAs and CAs.

Maybe the proper question is what is a trunk road? People seem to have varying definitions

Lol, the last time I looked at the definition of highway=trunk (wiki), there was no notion of “high importance” regardless of the nature of the road. It doesn’t make much sense to me, but if trunk is required/valid, so be it.

However, as far as I recall, there has been no discussion of the topic on talk-ca. If so, the Canadian definitions we are referring to appear to have been written without formal consultation.

There was a whole discussion back in February 2022
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-ca/2022-February/010251.html

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Canada/Tagging_guidelines/Road_classification

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Honestly, I miss that thread. So, if highway= trunk is required, so be it. :slight_smile:

Well, hold on now. If you read the discussion at Talk-ca, the proposed changes were pretty contentious, and it seems most Quebec-based mappers were questioning the premise of this in the first place. And in point of fact a certain someone agreed

[On] ne voi[t] pas ce qu’il y a à modifier dans la classification actuelle des routes, a tout le moins pour le Québec

https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-ca/2022-February/010263.html

:wink:

Edit: I edited the second half of this post about 1.5 hours after posting as I initially confused CAs and CMAs. My apologies.

Yes, and the route to its major CMA (Quebec City) is a motorway, so even higher than a trunk.

The question is whether the route between Saint-Georges and the Maine border should be a trunk, and that is much less clear to me, since the ties between Saint-Georges and any Maine metropolitan areas appear much weaker due to: 1. shared cultural and administrative ties with Quebec City instead, 2. international border in the way, and 3. sheer distance.

The other interpretation could be that a route between Quebec City and Maine’s metro areas is of enough transit importance to warrant a trunk (in that case we’d have motorway on autoroute 73, and trunk on route 173). Again I have my doubts. The fact that it was not included in NHS core, unlike e.g. Ontario’s Highway 71 to Fort Frances border crossing, suggests to me that that’s not the case. But I’ll happily defer to Quebec editors on that subject.

hoserab linked to the talk-ca discussion thread when the wiki draft version was introduced, that should give you some ideas.

On a higher level, there’s two approaches to road classification below motorway in OSM:

  • Classifying based on built form. For example in Poland trunk is used for expressways that are of slightly lower design than motorways. Gaps in these expressways, no matter how important or busy, are tagged primary, as with almost all other national roads. In this scheme, network importance is indicated by important roads belonging to the proper classification. This depends on this classification being sensible, i.e., all important roads really are national roads.
  • Classifying based on network importance. For example, deciding that main roads connecting Census Metropolitan Areas are to be trunk or higher, or deciding that NHS core routes are all trunk or higher. In this case, even a two-lane highway can be a trunk. In this scheme, built form is indicated by tags like expressway=yes.

As I understand it, in Canada so far we’re largely using the network importance schema, not the least because cross-country routes like the NHS and Trans-Canada really are important, even though they might be a thousand-kilometre two-lane highway with traffic volumes in low thousands per day. Then the problem is deciding which roads are important to the network, considering that we don’t have a true national system, and some provinces’ classification can leave something to be desired (ask me about Ontario’s Connecting Link).

Personally I think that using the criteria: 1. all NHS core routes are at least trunk, and 2. roads connecting CMAs are at least trunk, results in a fairly good network in Ontario and Quebec. My understanding was that this is essentially what was settled on in the talk-ca thread and the wiki discussion for Ontario, since these are basically the only objective definitions of “highways of national importance” and “population centres of regional importance” that we have. In Ontario, all centres of regional importance is connected by motorways or trunk right now, and I don’t see any important routes that should be trunk but aren’t.

(There are currently some deviations in Ontario from these guidelines in case of city bypasses, for example Caledonia Bypass or Veterans Memorial in London or Highway 26 outside Collingwood. Personally I don’t like these, and think they should be primary and expressway=yes if appropriate. But my interpretation of the main argument in favour is that they have implicit network importance by being designed to take through traffic, and I find that convincing enough to not get into edit wars about them.)

To summarize: route 173 between Saint-Georges and the U.S. border is neither an NHS core route nor connecting to a nearby population centre, thus personally I don’t see why it should be upgraded to trunk.

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A road classification based on connecting statistical units would probably benefit from identifying cross-border equivalences between statistical unit definitions. Otherwise, borderlands would inevitably get short shrift regardless of how well traffic flows through the border.

Some states have very clear notions, even official lists, of the important cities for highway destination purposes, but mappers there still have to consider how that system of important places would extend to surrounding states. That’s why for example the Maine guidelines refers to places in New Hampshire, New Brunswick, Vermont, and Québec. States in the middle of the U.S. do likewise, so (for once) this isn’t just a matter of Americans imposing on their northern neighbors.

If the Canadian CAs and CMAs have clear analogues down south, should they not be considered equivalent for the purpose of highway classification? It would seem kind of artificial or pedantic to draw a distinction solely based on which statistical agency is enumerating the population, especially if Statistics Canada and the U.S. Census Bureau coordinate geographic definitions for comparability, as they do for industrial classification and other things.

Sure, in theory I agree.

In practice, does this change the argument at all?

I seem to recall the cross-border connectivity argument was brought up in the 2022 talk-ca discussion, and after checking the borders, the conclusion was that all the major border crossings and cross-border population centres are indeed connected by either NHS core routes or routes that are freeways in real world (OSM motorway).

The NHS isn’t that bad at classifying routes :wink:

In the case being discussed, the Maine population centre of any size nearest to Saint-Georges seems to be 190 km away: Skowhegan, population 8620. Bangor (metro pop. ~150k) is 260 km. That seems a stretch to me. For comparison, it’s about 100 km to Quebec City (pop. ~700k). And as for the Quebec - Portland route, it’s double the distance of Quebec - Montreal or Portland - Boston.

I agree that distance between population centers is a factor. The greater the direct distance, the more likely there will be a less direct but better/faster alternate route. In this case though there really isn’t a better route between the Maine population centers and Québec City. Given that, I’m not sure why the distance matters. Is your thinking that there should be an upper limit on trunk route length between population centers?