Road Route Relations

mpele · 2012-08-04T18:55:42.000Z

What is the purpose of relations of this kind? Are they used during rendering or during navigation? I understand when relations are used for public transport but why the roads are connected in relations?

SunCobalt · 2012-08-04T19:37:26.000Z

mpele:

What is the purpose of relations of this kind? Are they used during rendering or during navigation? I understand when relations are used for public transport but why the roads are connected in relations?

Well, good question. It is not that obvious as public transport relations. First it is similar to borders. You would not need a relation to have a border rendered or in navigation. If you ask for example “what is within…” than you better have a relation. Something similar, but less common, you can ask for routes…“what is along the E123” or “how long is the E123” i.e. have we mapped all roads. Or if you want to render the european E-network only.
Almost everything works without a relation. You can tag ways along a bus route with bus_lines=1;2;3, borders with maybe country_left=Serbia, country_right=Romania and road routes with their identifiers and let the database sort it out. But it is easier if you have a (partly sorted) collection of things.

And one important reason is that there are many tools that can check relations of all kind and make it much easier to keep an eye on things, that would be very hard to monitor if not added to a relation for example road routes over some 100km

SunCobalt · 2012-08-04T20:05:28.000Z

by the way Peđa…Any chances that you set up the monitoring tool (not for E-roads but for M first and maybe R)?
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OSMonitor

mpele · 2012-08-05T07:04:16.000Z

SunCobalt:

And one important reason is that there are many tools that can check relations of all kind and make it much easier to keep an eye on things, that would be very hard to monitor if not added to a relation for example road routes over some 100km

Thanks

SunCobalt:

by the way Peđa…Any chances that you set up the monitoring tool (not for E-roads but for M first and maybe R)?
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OSMonitor

I looked at the code and it relays on PostgreSQL database with OSM data. So, I think that the main problem is the computer/server. Do we have any available?
I have no experience with Ruby and Wiki but I hope that with Ppawel’s help it could be easy done.

SunCobalt · 2012-08-05T08:00:20.000Z

mpele:

I looked at the code and it relays on PostgreSQL database with OSM data. So, I think that the main problem is the computer/server. Do we have any available?

yes I only would like to understand the osmosis replication better…wether all or only country specific updates are feed into the DB. Maybe it is better to keep a local serbia.osm.pbf file up-to-date with
osmosis --rri --simc --rb serbia.osm.pbf --ac --bp clipIncompleteEntities=yes file=serbia.poly --wb new.osm.pbf &&
rm serbia.osm.pbf && mv new.osm.pbf serbia.osm.pbf

and drop and re-add the database once a day. Will probably take less than 10 mins for Serbia

take a look at
/home/thomas/deadends/update_pl.sh

kmilos · 2012-08-05T11:06:30.000Z

Hm, maybe I was wrong about splitting the directions? Those examples seem to be further geographical section splits, rather then separating directions…

kmilos · 2012-08-05T11:15:52.000Z

Btw, maybe the following can help too:

http://www.putevi-srbije.rs/pdf/serbia_main_and_regional_road.pdf

misabrzi · 2012-08-05T11:43:33.000Z

SunCobalt:

no, politican, thanks, not in Serbia, not in Germany or elsewhere. Before you can become politican, you must get your brain removed from your head
back to the E771. Another english Wikipedia pages says “section between Niš and Priština is co-signed with E80”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highways_in_Serbia
Anyone able to find out where it really ends?

That article is referring to http://www.putevi-srbije.rs/pdf/serbia_main_and_regional_road.pdf as source (here is JPG version of the same http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/4853/mapaputeva.jpg). There you can see part of E-80 between Niš and Priština overlaps with E-771, so all wiki articles that say E-771 end in Priština, probably uses same source. Even though this map comes from official site it might be outdated or simply incorrect in some parts.

And something else I noticed, in ref tags, numbers and letters are separated by space. On our wiki page http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Serbia#Broj.C4.8Dane_ref.3D.2A_oznake there are no spaces in names but on English E road wiki http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_Europe/E-road_network#Tags_for_the_relation there are spaces. Further more it says E # ref is assigned to relation not to road, and I saw roads with E number on them selves, is this correct or should be changed.

misabrzi · 2012-08-05T11:48:13.000Z

kmilos:

Btw, maybe the following can help too:

http://www.putevi-srbije.rs/pdf/serbia_main_and_regional_road.pdf

I was thinking the same

Oh and one more thing, just to illustrate reliability of different sources http://www.geosrbija.rs/rga/default.aspx?gui=1&lang=3&minX=7545729.4108714&minY=4777564.2247739&maxX=7595664.211563&maxY=4815739.0180561&layers=220%20221&baselayer=100003&visibleOLOverlays=, here you can see same road marked as E80#E752 M25, witch is obviously outdated.

SunCobalt · 2012-08-05T11:54:36.000Z

misabrzi:

That article is referring to http://www.putevi-srbije.rs/pdf/serbia_main_and_regional_road.pdf as source (here is JPG version of the same http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/4853/mapaputeva.jpg). There you can see part of E-80 between Niš and Priština overlaps with E-771, so all wiki articles that say E-771 end in Priština, probably uses same source. Even though this map comes from official site it might be outdated or simply incorrect in some parts.

Ok, lets end it where it is. We can correct it if there are mot up to date or reliable information

misabrzi:

And something else I noticed, in ref tags, numbers and letters are separated by space. On our wiki page http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Serbia#Broj.C4.8Dane_ref.3D.2A_oznake there are no spaces in names but on English E road wiki http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_Europe/E-road_network#Tags_for_the_relation there are spaces.

I know but the number of possibilities is probably limited to E-123, E123 and E 123. If everything is in the right relation, than it is not problem in my eyes…But I can fix it if there is standard for Serbia agreed here.

misabrzi:

Further more it says E # ref is assigned to relation not to road, and I saw roads with E number on them selves, is this correct or should be changed.

It can also be tagged on the road with int_ref= but you are right, ref= should be the local number.

misabrzi · 2012-08-05T12:11:13.000Z

SunCobalt:

misabrzi:

That article is referring to http://www.putevi-srbije.rs/pdf/serbia_main_and_regional_road.pdf as source (here is JPG version of the same http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/4853/mapaputeva.jpg). There you can see part of E-80 between Niš and Priština overlaps with E-771, so all wiki articles that say E-771 end in Priština, probably uses same source. Even though this map comes from official site it might be outdated or simply incorrect in some parts.

Ok, lets end it where it is. We can correct it if there are mot up to date or reliable information

misabrzi:

And something else I noticed, in ref tags, numbers and letters are separated by space. On our wiki page http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Serbia#Broj.C4.8Dane_ref.3D.2A_oznake there are no spaces in names but on English E road wiki http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_Europe/E-road_network#Tags_for_the_relation there are spaces.

I know but the number of possibilities is probably limited to E-123, E123 and E 123. If everything is in the right relation, than it is not problem in my eyes…But I can fix it if there is standard for Serbia agreed here.

misabrzi:

Further more it says E # ref is assigned to relation not to road, and I saw roads with E number on them selves, is this correct or should be changed.

It can also be tagged on the road with int_ref= but you are right, ref= should be the local number.

I think we haven’t agreed (yet) on standard markings for E roads, and since we already have relations for major road and you are building it for regional roads, this might be something to put on a To do list and discuss it later. And ref also, so I’ll leave it as it is .

misabrzi · 2012-08-05T12:26:03.000Z

I just found one more source http://www.unece.org/fileadmin/DAM/trans/conventn/ECE-TRANS-SC1-384e.pdf (E 771 on page 26).
And I’m looking at some examples around Europe and tag combinations are int_ref= for E roads and ref= for national, so this looks ok.

kmilos · 2012-08-07T10:40:26.000Z

SunCobalt:

Are you fine with the suggested tags for the routes? If I touch the E-roads then it is only a small step to create the srb:national/regional road relations at the same time.

Just a quick ‘2 pare’ :

Seems there is precedent for alpha-2 country code here [1] (uppercase please as prescribed by ISO 3166), and also to keep with the ‘official’ classification [2] maybe we should choose something like

RS:class_I
RS:class_II

although the ‘popular’ classification

RS:national
RS:regional

will work just as well…

[1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Route#Road_routes
[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highways_in_Serbia

SunCobalt · 2012-08-07T20:06:06.000Z

whatever you want. Class I&II would be a better description of the Serbian classifications, national/regional/motoways would be more generic. There is no standard yet in OSM (Germany has no network=, except BAB->Bundesautobahn=Federal motorway, which I think is a mess…a german acronym in an international project). Personally I prefer national/regional/motorways because it is a step forward to an OSM standard and people not familar with Serbian (or Poland or Japan…)specific classifications, will find such generic classes easier and will not need to find the classes for each country individually.

mpele · 2012-08-10T06:59:51.000Z

У мају ове године је урађена реорганизација категоризације државних путева.
Законски је регулисана са Уредбом и Правилником:
http://www.putevi-srbije.rs/pdf/regulativa/uredba_o_kategorizaciji_puteva.pdf
http://www.putevi-srbije.rs/pdf/regulativa/pravilnik_objavljen_u_sl_glasniku_rs_broj_50_2012_od_18.05.2012.pdf

У правилнику између осталог стоји:

Član 26.
Podaci iz Evidencije su javni i dostupni su svim korisnicima pod istim uslovima.

Pedja · 2012-08-10T20:51:42.000Z

Po našem zakonu dokumenti državnih ustanova ne mogu piti predmet autorskog prava, počev od zakona i podzakonskih akata pa sve do kartografskih podataka.

mpele · 2012-08-11T06:40:20.000Z

Јесте да се удаљавамо од теме, али по ком закону документи државних установа не могу бити предмет ауторског права??? И како дефинишу документ?

Pedja · 2012-08-12T09:20:36.000Z

Из Закона о ауторским и сродним правима:

Члан 6

Ауторскоправном заштитом нису обухваћене опште идеје, начела, принципи и упутства који су
садржани у ауторском делу.
Не сматрају се ауторским делом:
закони, подзаконски акти и други прописи;
службени материјали државних органа и органа који обављају јавну функцију;
службени преводи прописа и службених материјала државних органа и органа који обављају
јавну функцију;
поднесци и други акти у управном или судском поступку.

mpele · 2012-08-14T07:03:33.000Z

Pedja:

Из Закона о ауторским и сродним правима:Члан 6

Не видим да на основу овог закона да можемо да извучемо неку корист

Него да се вратимо на тему. Који су подаци потребни за креирање релација, односно за њихову проверу? Ако сам добро разумео то су правац и његова дужина?

http://www.putevi-srbije.rs/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&id=49&lang=sr

На горњем линку се може наћи статистика бројања саобраћаја, односно неке деонице (можда су и све) и њихове дужине. Ајд да се пресаберемо шта нам је потребно па да им то и тражимо.

kmilos · 2012-08-18T14:51:00.000Z

FYI, just made a new wiki page listing the road route relations (only international so far): http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Serbia/Road_network

P.S. Went ahead and did the E65 split all over, took me a couple of days