Road Classification in Indonesia

Communities Indonesia
1

I just want to discuss the classification of roads in Indonesia which until now still refers to government regulations so that it can cause problems. I just want to discuss the classification of roads in Indonesia which until now still refers to government regulations so that it can give rise to debate.

Open street map is designed to not always and must follow the provisions that have been made by the government. In OSM, road classification editing is also carried out according to current conditions (dynamic) and not based on government regulations (static).

2

Hi @Gaung_Tebono and welcome here!

This should rather be discussed in the Indonesia community, where there is a current discussion to this same theme:

Best regards

3

That which is discussed by Easy Kony is the highway=trunk classification, not other road classifications. I only touched on the classification of highway=primary, highway=secondary and highway=teritiary which still refers to government decisions.

4

Hi, I am glad you finally engage in an open discussion regarding this topic.

Indonesian OSM has long been using government authority designation as the main reference for tagging road classification. However, this has created multiple issues:

  1. Some designations are not relevant right now due to changes in road condition, or government study is just simply outdated
  2. Government classify roads that does not exist for planning purpose, which shouldn’t be used as a tagging baseline for built road in OSM
  3. Urban roads in OSM does not use the same tagging guideline as rural roads, tagging them based on authority designation alone would eliminate the importance of intracity roads/streets
  4. General OSM guideline uses function of roads, combined with road condition, to determine each classification. Answering questions regarding classification issue with authority designation does not seem right.

Because of this, since around last year, I have tried to redefine the local equivalence for road classification in Indonesia. The goal is to create clear definition for each classification, without relying too much on authority designation, focusing on what is linked by the road, while retaining the general concept of road classification the Indonesian community has been using for years. This way, each classification will have their correct justification, with only small edits needed for existing OSM road data. No mass editing required. You can read this revise definition in some pages, notably here and here.

Local government regulation should not be ruled out. The government provides information about the purpose of each road and who it used by, intercity traffic or urban traffic. Independent studies can also be used as reference. This is to prevent subjective edits, when biased users try to make roads in their home region more prominent than what they are.

And here comes your edits…

Several contributors, including me, has flagged your contributions as incorrect. You overinflated road classification data in Ngawi, Magetan, Sragen, and Blora. You incorrectly changed what should be highway=residential to highway=tertiary, highway=tertiary to highway=secondary, and highway=secondary to highway=primary. To make my point clear, here are some example of your contributions that I deemed incorrect:

  1. Jalan Raya Ngawi-Paron-Jogorogo. This road only connects Ngawi Regency activity center to districts southwest of it. You tagged this road with highway=primary when highway=secondary alone is enough
  2. Jalan Paron-Kedungputri. This road only connects district activity center into another village. Roads with this purpose should be tagged with highway=unclassified or highway=tertiary. For that exact road, highway=tertiary may be appropriate and enough.
  3. Whatever this road or street is, it is only a residential road that links houses and connects them to nearby through road, but you tagged it with highway=tertiary.

Those are not the only mistakes I spotted, there are a lot more road classification data around Ngawi that become messed up because of your edit.

What are you doing?

Since about 4-5 months ago, you started to overinflate everything in Ngawi. From this classification issue, to tagging hamlets as villages, tagging villages as towns, putting cycleways where there are none, adding slip roads on junctions where there are none, changing sidewalks to pedestrian streets, etc. You also merged admin boundaries to road, which is not recommended and made it harder for other contributors to edit. Other contributors have warned you about this issues, but you keep reverting edits or delivering confusing argument.

One example is, you stated at one point that Ngawi is a “city” based on East Java RTRW, overruling Kemendagri, but there is no information about that in RTRW. You also tried to tag Ngawi with place=city and capital=4 to make Ngawi rendered larger, even larger than Madiun which factually is a larger city near Ngawi. This falls into tagging for the renderer situation, where you use incorrect tag to skew data and make your area show up larger or more prominent.

My argument about you being biased is not merely an accusation. You messaged me in OSM that I should not edit Ngawi region because you are responsible and own that regency in OSM. You also mentioned that you rely on local knowledge, so other contributors’ opinion, even government studies, does not matter. You also link your Wikimedia account to your profile, and I got notification from an Indonesian Wikipedia contributor that your account is skewing information to make Ngawi more prominent.

I suggest you to read more about OSM on the wiki, observe what other contributors are doing, see what existing data on OSM looks like, discuss first if you don’t understand something, and more importantly, be aware of the state of your region and how it compares to other regions.

2 Likes
5

The DWG has issued a one-week edit block against NaufalFarras and Gaung Tebono for engaging in an edit war. I am also presently changing all highway objects that were edited by Gaung Tebono back to their previous highway value. This is not saying these edits are wrong - but they must be based on a broad consensus, not on one individual’s interpretation of the situation.

1 Like
6

For the record: I have tried to contact the DWG twice about this issue. I got a reply from them for the first one, where the DWG encouraged more discussion. So, I tried to contact user Gaung Tebono a few times, asking him to explain his understanding of Indonesian highway classification, which I could use as input for wiki documentation and my edits in the future. I asked him to write in open media, like this forum, so this issue could benefit the OSM community as a whole. However, I received no explanation and was asked to instead stay away from editing his region. I decided to limit my contributions there to avoid conflict. I also brought this issue up in the Indonesian OSM monthly Zoom meeting (just last week).

However, he then expanded his edits to other cities and regencies, in which I am actively contributing. After further research, I also found that he mistagged a large number of hamlets and villages in Ngawi. I then decided to revert them based on community consensus. I also messaged one DWG member to follow up on this issue. As of a few hours ago, I still had no response. Other contributors also have no interest in this issue, which is not their fault, since no one is obligated to contribute to this voluntary project.

I used the “edit war” method as a last resort to gain attention, since this widespread data vandalism has been going on for months and no one seems interested in solving it. I initially was against using tools and preferred manual edits, but he kept using the revert tool irresponsibly, in which my 3-to-4-hour contribution disappeared in a few seconds. I know the rule and risk of this method, and I am satisfied with this outcome. Even if that means I am blocked for a week, hopefully more contributors more aware of this issue.

7

The problem of village and hamlet editing errors should not be brought here either because it is a different topic. The main topic in this discussion is about road classification which does not have to be guided by government regulations.

The intention of this discussion is only to resolve and provide clarity regarding road classification in Indonesia.

1 Like
8

This problem can be solved by providing the conclusion that “Classification of primary and secondary roads does not necessarily have to follow government regulations because Open Street Maps’ terminology is different from existing regulations”.

As you mentioned some time ago, “primary roads in urban areas are not the same as primary roads outside the city or in rural areas.” I agree and can understand your opinion regarding primary roads in urban areas because in urban areas the traffic activity and movement is quite high so it is suitable to use highway=primary classification.

Please do not end this discussion before finding the best solution.

9

Your discussion is off topic regarding road classification in Indonesia, why did you bring the issue of place=city to this forum…???

10

It’s been clearly written on the Wiki, it says that "highway=primary and highway=secondary terminologies in OSM are different, compared to primary and secondary terminologies used by the government” (paraphrased). However, government’s classification of primary and secondary network can be used in OSM to determine whether roads are part of urban or rural network. Government’s primary road network are intercity/rural network, while government’s secondary road network are urban network. OSM Wiki and guidelines never say primary network should be automatically tagged with highway=primary, secondary network should not be automatically tagged with highway=secondary. Which part of that you don’t understand?

The main problem here is about you overinflating road classification. You tagged connection of districts with highway=primary, you tagged connection of villages with highway=secondary, you tagged connection of houses with highway=tertiary, all of them are incorrect. All of them are not related to your written argument above.

I brought village and hamlet editing issue here because that directly affect how mapper maps road classification. If you use place=town for villages, other mappers would justify the usage of higher classification. For example, a highway=tertiary road could be mistakenly tagged as highway=secondary because mappers think it links large towns, when in reality it only links villages.

11

I understand exactly what you mean. But at least don’t rely solely on government regulations, because the authority status of roads managed by the government is not necessarily the same with the classification given in OSM. For example, Primary collector road 2 (JKP-2) and primary collector road 3 (JKP-3) are under provincial authority, but in OSM in fact it does not meet the requirements to be classified as a highway=primary because it does not connect cities that are not reached by highway=trunk. This case is often found on highways, especially on the island of Java.

There are also roads that are under the authority of the regency and city which are suitable to be categorized as highway=primary, but are actually categorized as highway=secondary even though these roads are connecting intercity within one province that is not reached by highway=trunk. So the conclusion is that Open Street Maps should not rely entirely on government regulations, especially regarding the status of who is authorized. If the road is under provincial authority, simply add the tag "designation=provincial_road” and "designation=regental_road” if the authority to manage the road is the regency goverment and “designation=city_road” if the authority is the city government. There are many cases of provincial roads that use the classification highway=primary, even though the more appropriate classification is highway=secondary because they connect district areas and does not become the main road network connecting the capital of district A with the capital of district B, and vice versa. Highway=secondary there are certain roads that connect the capitals of regency A and B only because the authority is at the regency level.

12

Dear @Gaung_Tebono,

We, as members of Indonesian OSM Community does not blindly, 100%, follow government regulations. We compare them with the function of the road by looking into the real world.

You, on the other hand, are overinflating everything. You made Ngawi appear more prominent than Madiun. There also have been invitation extended to you to join our Indonesian-speaking community group on Telegram to discuss these matters with the entire Indonesian community, but you always refuse to join. Why won’t you cooperate with other Indonesian mappers?

I am sorry to say that I do not agree with your edits. Would you please cooperate with the consensus agreed upon by the Indonesian community?

One example (out of many questionable edits from you): This is a simple traffic circle. No need to overcomplicate it. You also drew some of the ways as if Indonesia drives on the right-hand side of the road. Why? This is exactly why we reverted many of your edits. Turns out, most of got tired and only NFarras remains to diligently revert your doings.

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2 Likes
13

The user @kevbold has undone some of my reverts. It would be good if the community could have a look at @kevbold’s latest edits and check if they are in line with community standards.

1 Like
14

Ya, I actually agree with your opinion regarding “according to the field” or “real world”. But at least in OSM, if the data can be changed, then change it because the data is in the report.Yes, I actually agree with your opinion regarding “according to the field” or “real world”. But at least in OSM, if the data can be changed, then change it because the data in The field is dynamic, conditions often change and is not static.

15

Bro, Maybe Kevbold deliberately cancelled the revision you made because it did not match the data directly in the field. Kevbold, perhaps he conducted a survey directly by looking at the condition of the road in question.

1 Like
16

I just spent a couple of hours trying to fix some road classification in Yogyakarta and Ngawi area. If any of my edits seems not right, please correct them or let me know and I will change them, no problem at all.

Gaung Tebono could it be a good time for you to admit (or apologize) that you over-classified roads? I believe you learned now that most editors are against your recent edits. I don’t need to understand your reason for your over-classifications, shall it be that you wanted to show some areas more developed than they are, or wanted to be a prominent editor or whatsoever… But a sign from you that you will try to follow the community’s ideas from now on would be very nice.

We all know classifications are a tricky thing. Depends if a road is in a city or in a rural area and many more factors. When I edit classifications, I also consider what road should a navigation system suggest for an OSM user, so that for example traffic isn’t sent through a residential area and disturbs the residents and causes unnecessary traffic.

2 Likes
17

I agree that we should not blindly follow the government. However as I said before, government’s info can be used as framework to avoid things like this.

You mentioned JKP-2 and JKP-3 classification examples. Those roads should be tagged with highway=primary by default. However, this rule can be overturned by the community if deemed not important enough. It is very rare for JKP-2 and JKP-3 roads to be upgraded into highway=trunk. Intercity roads should look into what they link instead of automatically tag them into highway=primary. If it only connects non-capital districts, then highway=secondary or highway=tertiary is enough.

Again, disputes like this should be individually discussed if they deviate from common editing guideline.

1 Like
18

Kevbold here, I am a local resident of the area so i do know Palangka Raya pretty well. About the edit i made, i did it because the edit by woodpeck was to me as local resident was slighly wrong. But i do want to know if my edits are in line with community guidelines, if my edit was wrong and doesnt line up with community guidelines then i will gladly fix my mistakes. Thank you

20

Sorry for dragging you into this dispute. Based on current Standard layer rendering, roads and streets in Palangka Raya looks okay to me. I don’t know whether that reflect your edits or not.

22

No worries, thanks for comment.