Ref tagging in the US

[Baloo_Uriza]

@dknelson9876

First, the simpler case: a freeway interchange at a dual carriageway with different classifications on each end. For example, I 15 and Bangerter Hwy (SR 154). To the west, Bangerter Hwy is highway=motorway. To the east, Bangerter Hwy is highway=secondary.

First, it should never be SR, it should be UT, in order to be consistent with the rest of the US. Second, motorways don’t have at-grade intersections, should be highway=trunk, expressway=yes between exit 1 and here (there’s another at-grade intersection in between). At exit 1, I’d turn it trunk where the ramps pointing west start/end.

@dknelson9876

I won’t even try to write out all the changes between classification for the roads that connect to the ramps, because it’s a lot. In this changeset, Flap Slimy Outward and Oregonian3 had a short discussion about whether this spread interchange qualifies short sections for higher priority. What do you all think is the best course to follow here, given that if classifications were continuous, these ramps connect to primary, secondary, and tertiary roads?

Flap Slimy Outward’s been doing a lot of questionable armchair mapping lately. Like, nothing really specific but there’s been a pretty geographically dispersed pattern and using Wikipedia heresay that’s making me question why they’re not going full detail mode on their local area.

[Flap_Slimy_Outward]

@Baloo_Uriza

that’s making me question why they’re not going full detail mode on their local area.

But I already do that…

[Baloo_Uriza]

@Lumikeiju

ref=WA * vs ref=SR * has also been discussed a few times in Washington (state), because ref=SR * is what is signed and actually used. (And I support using the ref=SR * variant)

Because state DOTs don’t care about other states, it’s (mostly) not within scope for them to do so. That’s the thing. Oregon also uses SR on signs, Oklahoma uses SH. That doesn’t change that this is ambiguous and the ambiguous situation should be avoided. And all three states mentioned have state highways in other states: Oregon and Washington have routes in each other, Washington has one Alaska state highway, Oklahoma has one state highway in Arkansas and vice versa…

[Minh_Nguyen (Minh Nguyễn)]

@Baloo_Uriza

That doesn’t change that this is ambiguous and the ambiguous situation should be avoided.

I thought we all agreed that the way to avoid ambiguity is to focus on route relations, which incidentally still put the state abbreviation in network=US:*. What’s the point of making way refs look like a deceptively simpler alternative to route relations?

[Baloo_Uriza]

@Minh_Nguyen

I thought we all agreed that the way to avoid ambiguity is to focus on route relations, which incidentally still put the state abbreviation in network=US:*. What’s the point of making way refs look like a deceptively simpler alternative to route relations?

You’re making a stronger argument for eliminating ref=* on ways than in favor of being inconsistent with the rest of America.

[Minh_Nguyen (Minh Nguyễn)]

If way refs are on their way out, then let them get more inconsistent. Of the 29 states that don’t officially use postal abbreviations in route numbers, five states no longer use postal abbreviations in way refs or never have. These states have promoted the use of route relations among data consumers more than any saber-rattling about deprecating way refs ever has.

[ZeLonewolf (Brian M Sperlongano)]

@Baloo_Uriza

That doesn’t change that this is ambiguous and the ambiguous situation should be avoided.

Now hear me out.

If that ambiguity means data consumers must use route relations for use cases where that ambiguity is a problem, isn’t that a good thing?

I see the ref tag in these cases as a form of pseudo name tag for less sophisticated use cases.

[Baloo_Uriza]

@ZeLonewolf

If that ambiguity means data consumers must use route relations for use cases where that ambiguity is a problem, isn’t that a good thing?

That makes a better argument for actively removing ref=* on ways than it does for letting data atrophy.

[ZeLonewolf (Brian M Sperlongano)]

Right, because it’s your pet bugaboo. However, data consumers, including one of mine, actually use that ref tag as a name surrogate on otherwise unnamed ways. I appreciate that state specific nomenclature is used in those cases, which can’t be systematically reconstructed without some combination of complex heuristics and/or wikidata lookups through the route relations.

Or we can just leave well enough alone and leave a system that is working, today, for real world use cases. Nobody is forcing you personally to maintain these.