Proposing to deprecate railway=razed and railway=dismantled

Licence/Community Guidelines/Horizontal Map Layers - Guideline - OpenStreetMap Foundation seems relevant

AFAIK if you just show at the same two datasets and do not edit either based on another one (and just show existing railways from one and no longer existing one from another) then share-alike is not triggered.

WARNING: I am not a lawyer, this is not an official OSMF statement (as usual, unless I noted otherwise).

It still has exactly the same problem - if there is no evidence of a railroad having existed at a location (on a given place, not in archives or old maps) then such railway is not mappable in OSM.

Disclaimer: case where feature was recently removed and is visible on aerial imagery may fall under exception of keeping recently gone features

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If there’s really no evidence for a railroad there then its not mappable on OSM and its been like that for a while. It would only be a tag on a cylceway, embankment, cutting, tunnel, bridge, or so on, that has evidence that it was a railway. The point is that the tag is describing where what’s currently on the ground came from.

These are some examples of that that people posted in the discord :
https://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/2540126
https://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/2682203
https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/1179149906003374243/1196132447604199464/20240114_152039.jpg?ex=65ede326&is=65db6e26&hm=3d8fa1fac3ca51a5bd47056a978d252fbfe9f6e3eb1150c23277ef200fc8726b&
https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/1179149906003374243/1196132447293804634/20240114_135203.jpg?ex=65ede326&is=65db6e26&hm=9bac7ce4f80c0aebd19ea45ae414df22df6507469745ae41a44e56a175c4efec&

I don’t personally see the appeal for adding it onto things and I wouldn’t use it, but if someone can truly verify that a road, cycleway, etc came from a railway with ground evidence or an old map or something, it seems fine. It would not be just a replacement of railway=razed.

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There was some on-the-ground evidence in the situation I encountered - there were a few structures still left indicating the road was formerly a railway, but only pieces remained and what existed was defunct. I was only an observer to the mapping dispute - If it had been up to me I would have drawn the whole thing as a tertiary way, reflecting its current function, instead of as a railway, when it was last capable of operating as such 40 years in the past.

I guess the question we have to tackle is: if only parts of a very large structure is still extant, where do we the line between mapping and not mapping it? I fall on the side of avoiding mapping the leftover parts of anything that’s mostly been demolished.

Is it a legitimate thing to do to just slap these on a way underneath a typical highway tag (assuming parts of the old defunct railway still exist)? If yes, maybe it is unnecessary to depecrate railway=razed and railway=dismantled.

That’s only going to be an option if all of the data currently in OSM is also compatible with OHM. I suspect that this is not the case (which is why I asked for clarification above).

For completeness, I have moved OSM historic data to OHM in the past**. This was when the source of the data in OSM (out of copyright maps) was definitely compatible.

I’ve added plenty of “abandoned” railway data to OSM in the past, usually based on survey with infill from OOC maps. However, sometimes Bing has been used (for aligning private tracks, for example). Is that compatible with OHM? Even if it was, would OHM want it?

** This was before OHM “lost” its database and had to be restored to a much older version, so unfortunately my contributions were lost.

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It would be great if the main discussion could take place on an official OSM channel (like here on the forums), and then you report the results to Discord, instead of the other way around.

Yes! It seems folks want to undo years of OSM convention. While we should be open to change, I don’t think it adds value in this case.

Since you quoted part of my response, I want to be clear, my decision to not delete railways is not a matter of being afraid of inciting controversy, but rather out of respect for other mappers and the realization that there are probably a lot of other people that know a whole lot more about railways than I do. I understand that other mappers may have different motivations.

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That’s Monsal Head Viaduct in Derbyshire, somewhere that I am very familiar with. That trail is obviously both highway=cycleway and an abandoned railway**. (not dismantled or razed so not subject to to the suggestion at the top of this thread, but worth mentioning for what I’m going to say next).

The ways on the route used to have “railway=abandoned” tags until https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/1101430653 was added to duplicate the current cycleway with an old railway. This is wrong for a number of reasons - there is only one feature here, not two (it was a railway, and is now a cycleway), and the “former railwayness” of the cycleway has been lost.

I suspect that this issue is not widespread around the world, but I have been “bucket and shovelling” it in various places in England that I’ve been.

** edit to add why this is particularly useful: Until the tunnels were reopened when walking from Matlock to Buxton you had to scramble over the top of the hill that the tunnels cut through. The information that it was a former railway means that everyone and their granny can walk it without problems, something that absolutely wasn’t the case before.

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I don’t see why not. I have done something like this with tracks a trails. Where the track is so overgrown that it is no longer possible to drive a vehicle on it, but it is possible to hike on it.

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I agree, but “discussion moving somewhere else” is entirely understandable when a thread is closed (even temporarily) here. I referred to a very old “talk” mailing list post earlier to try and show that this isn’t a new thing that has just blown up.:slight_smile:

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Yes, it has been going on for many years, but this latest incarnation seems to have started on Discord and continued there until a sort of consensus was reached, and only then was anything posted on the forums. In other words, it didn’t move to Discord when this thread was closed.

for all of them there are relatively clear remains of railway (or at least construction very similar to typical railway structures) so these are railway=abandoned (maybe even railway=disused if railway tracks are remaining, this may be even an active railway line (based on this photo alone).

This thread is about something else.

Bad mapping using say railway=razed is about cases where for example railway, village and 40m of soil and rock below it was replaced by open pit mine. See say File:Turow.jpg - Wikimedia Commons

Or say File:AlejaAdamaMickiewicza-OgólnyWidokNaPołudnie-StareMiasto-POL, Kraków.jpg - Wikimedia Commons where (AFAIK on this segment, but not fully sure) had now gone, without trace, a railway embankment.

And some people still try to invalidly map such railway in OSM and defend it as OK. But in this cases these data will be sooner or later deleted from OSM and it was never correct to put in there.

(this is not a theoretical case, I deleted tracks only across this specific open pit mine at least twice)

(and yes, there is another strain of problem with people remotely deleting railways where mapper surveyed and confirmed existence of remnants - without attempt to even contact original mapper)

That comment was about display of map data from OHM and OSM at the same time. (IANAL - yes, you can)

Whether OSM data can/should be moved to OHM is a separate issue.

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Openhistoricalmap actively encourages people to come over and map historical things. I’ve even heard they’ve got some new railway layer, although I don’t know much about it. Its not about disrespecting railway mappers, rather its about having good data. Past railways do not belong on OSM. The status quo of razed and dismantled railways allows people to come in and map demolished railways and think they’re in the right.

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It may very well be the other way around. The cycleway in my picture with the tunnel began it’s life in OSM 2011 as railway=preserved, was modified 2014 to railway=disused and 2021 moved to railway=abandoned because of the work at the cycleway. 2022 the tag construction=cycleway was slapped at this way. The last change was last year after the opening of the cycleway. Now it is highway=cycleway and railway=abandoned.

This combination is the usual one here where I live, both sides of the French-German Border.

There are parts of Germany where they prefer this form of mapping too, see

Perhaps I wasn’t clear, the “respect” has to do with admitting that some other mapper may be able to see things on the landscape that you and I can’t because they have more experience in this matter than either of us. It doesn’t mean that something has to always be left on the map out of “respect.” By all means, if you want to delete a railway that runs through a housing development that was created by first scraping away all remnants of what existed before, go ahead. I won’t complain.

If you are having a dispute with another mapper regarding whether a specific feature belongs in OSM, bring that dispute to the attention of the community here. If the feature really no longer exists in any form, you will get my support.

The OpenRailwayMap wiki page defines railway=abandoned as an “Abandoned track”:

While the track no longer holds any rails or signals, the former line (or even a trackbed) can still be seen. These remains might include embankments, trenches, bridges and tunnels.

To me, this all sounds entirely appropriate to include in OSM. What is being mapped is the currently existing terrain features, that used to be part of a railway. For sections where no such terrain features are present, I don’t think a way should be mapped.

The same wiki page defines railway=razed as an “Overbuilt track”:

A former track that has been built upon. While some remains might still be seen, the former route is subject to educated guesses for the most part. Note that mapping demolished railways without traces should be done in OpenHistoricalMap - not in OpenStreetMap.

This really doesn’t sound like something that makes sense to to have in OSM. If the track has been built over with something else, then mapping the thing that has been built over it takes precedence. With any significant construction, earth will be moved making the former railbed no longer recognizable.

I’d make an exception if the railbed has been re-purposed as a cycle path (or similar) that now follows the exact same route. In this situation, the shape of the terrain is still recognizable as a former railbed while also currently being in use for a different purpose. Many former railbeds in my area have been converted to cycle paths with a secondary goal of preserving the right of way for potential future railway use. It seems reasonable for these ways to be tagged as a former railway as well as a cycleway. I’d prefer a tag like historic=railbed as this suggests the presence of terrain features recognizable as an old railbed. railway=razed rather suggests the absense of a railway that used to be there, inviting use in places where there is nothing recognizable remaining.

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(With my hat on as an OpenHistoricalMap advisor, but not even remotely as a lawyer. Do lawyers even wear hats?)

OpenHistoricalMap is in the public domain under a CC0 dedication unless otherwise noted.[1] As long as you omit those negligible “otherwise noted” portions, you should be able to combine it with OpenStreetMap data without any legal hurdles. It’d be like any of the public domain datasets that data consumers use in conjunction with OSM data, such as Natural Earth coastlines in openstreetmap-carto or TIGER addresses in Nominatim. If you want to be on the safe side, you can get your abandoned railways exclusively from OHM and ignore OSM’s coverage of haphazard fragments of the same.

On the technical side, OHM publishes a planet. There’s no extract service similar to Geofabrik, but the entire planet is still quite small compared to OSM. We also publish an official set of vector tiles. These tiles power OHM’s new experimental Railway style. If you’re OK with depicting any former rail infrastructure as such, regardless of time period, then you don’t need the interactive filtering capabilities that come with vector tiles; you can render them more naïvely using a Mapnik–Leaflet raster stack.

Even simpler would be an old-fashioned mashup: a MapLibre GL or Mapbox GL map can include both an OHM vector layer styled on the client side and an OSM raster layer styled on the server side, one as an overlay of the other.

OHM would prefer not to adopt the ODbL outright, so the current advice is to only transfer a feature if you personally authored it or have secured permission from its authors to transfer it. This sounds very limiting until you consider that the degree of micromapping in OSM is probably less relevant to OHM, so you can often get away with mapping a road or waterway more crudely than in OSM. That’s not to say that OHM doesn’t micromap; it’s just that we’re more focused on micromapping history, filling in gaps in the historical record.

The process for transferring is more complicated than it should be. We’re working toward a more streamlined solution as part of iD and will hopefully have more to announce on that front later this year.


  1. A minuscule number of features have a license=* tag (yes, American English…) indicating that they have additional restrictions, typically an attribution requirement. In my personal opinion, OHM should work to eliminate these exceptions in the long run. In the meantime, you can filter out anything with a license=* that doesn’t mention “public domain” or “CC0”. ↩︎

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The railway= tag is used to map the trackbed geometry, just as the highway= tag is used to map the geometry of what Americans call “pavement”.

  • railway=rail means that there is an active railway on the trackbed.
  • railway=disused means that there is a disused railway on the trackbed (rails still down, no trains run).
  • railway=abandoned means that there is no railway on the trackbed, but that the trackbed is still extant. This is the standard tag to use for rails-to-trails cycleways.
  • railway=dismantled (or railway=razed, they’re synonymous) means that the trackbed is no longer extant but that the former presence of a trackbed is still an observable fact worth mapping.

The canonical example near me is Hook Norton Viaduct:

224672_140bd399

(photo by Stephen Craven from geograph.org.uk, CC-BY-SA. More photos of the viaduct: Photos of hook norton viaduct :: Geograph Britain and Ireland. It’s really quite something!)

The trackbed here, made of iron, was removed in the 1960s after the line closed. The pillars remain. As a result, the individual pillars are mapped with historic=ruins and the line connecting them is mapped as railway=dismantled. The latter gives context and meaning to the former, showing that the pillars were built as part of the railway and therefore have a design and construction appropriate to that.

That this structure is a railway structure is an observable, documentable fact. I grant that an ancient people could have come along and built the pillars as part of some sort of mysterious Stonehenge-like ritual, in praise of the Prophet Ba-Ron B’Ching. But until we have any evidence for that, railway=dismantled it is.

There are lots of examples like this, where a bridge deck has been removed but the abutments and (often) pillars remain. This is the core use (in my view) for railway=dismantled. I am not going to man the barricades for people who use it across ploughed-up fields. But then, I haven’t surveyed those fields and it’s possible there are details I haven’t seen, so nor am I going to delete it. (I would be a bit miffed if someone deleted the obscure bits of the former Oakham Canal which I spent my 20s traipsing around fields discovering, just because they can’t see them on Bing imagery.)


Incidentally, I wonder if TNS-MN's Diary | OSM Leave of Absence | OpenStreetMap is connected with this episode. If so that’s very sad - it looks like we may have lost a good contributor with local knowledge.

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(just to reply to this one bit) - or, presumably, if that data in OSM was sourced completely from sources compatible with OHM, such as out of copyright maps?

That’s much less clear to me; I would want someone with a better understanding of the ODbL to weigh in on that one.

Hopefully whoever added that data to OSM has cited the out-of-copyright map so that you can track it down yourself. In that case, you might as well map it from scratch in OHM using the same source. This gives you an opportunity to do a better job of drawing it, research the start and end dates, etc. This guide to tracing old maps can help you get started.

We’ve had similar discussions about OSM’s major imports in the U.S., particularly GNIS. Sad as it might be for the OSM community, I think importing directly from the source, ignoring OSM’s improvements to the data over the years, might be a better starting point in some of these cases. In the case of GNIS, OSM deliberately deleted anything that was tagged as “historic”, so not all of those improvements were improvements from an OHM perspective anyways.

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Taking a step back from the most recent flareup, I’d like to reflect a bit on the “on-the-ground” verifiability principle. Verifiability is an important rule for any online crowdsourcing project with as low a barrier to entry as we have, and especially important for any map that people trust as part of their daily lives. Both sides of the abandoned rail debate have passionately invoked the verifiability principle, both in this thread and in the parallel German thread. Who is right?

There’s often more than one way to verify a fact about the world. Scientists distinguish between observation and inference. OpenStreetMap is built around the ethos that each of us is an enterprising surveyor, GPS unit in hand and bedecked in full high-vis regalia. Anyone can do it! Of course, the reality is that most of us end up staring at aerial imagery most of the time instead. Anyone can do that too! Either way, this is mostly an exercise in observation. But usually we don’t just record what we see verbatim; we apply local knowledge or common sense in interpreting these observations. This is inference.

Both observation and inference have a place in OSM. Observation matters somewhat more, as it aligns with OSM’s goal of democratizing mapmaking, but it’s insufficient. There’s a reason no one likes to hear, “Don’t map [the thing you wanted to map]; just map the signs!” Robots can just map the signs, but we are not robots. If we were to take a fanatical stance of mapping only pure observations, then OSM’s landuse coverage would consist of nothing but coloured polygons, no different than posterizing satellite imagery, a cheap trick that some proprietary maps like to employ to seem like they have more detailed coverage than they really have.

A venture capitalist once asked me why I waste my time contributing 3D buildings and navigation details to OSM when the future is clearly in LiDAR point clouds and HD mapping. I wasn’t going to win him over with a diatribe about licensing, but I did have this to offer in our defense: against a constant drumbeat of automation, OSM provides unique value by inferring semantics from our observations. (I left that encounter empty-handed anyways. Oh well.)

On the other hand, a crowdsourced project can only admit inferences up to a point. On the Internet, no one knows you’re a dog with a postdoctorate degree in ferroequinology; you could just as well be making it all up, and we need to be able to tell the difference. A darkened strip in a field, visible only from the air – is that the residue of a former trackbed, a crop mark left by an ancient wall, or a geoglyph of unknown meaning? When a self-professed railfan excitedly proclaims it to be a trackbed, one hopes it’s because they have other corroborating evidence or external context to make that inference. I can cite my personal experience or professional expertise, or Occam’s razor, but to the community it can look like a personal bias.

OpenHistoricalMap does things differently than OSM, by necessity. No one has developed a FOSS time machine yet, so observation can only get us so far. With observation alone, we cannot fully tell the story of a people molded by colonialism, of a minority community that was wiped out by freeway construction, of human folly that was smitten by a natural disaster. Without any observable details, any inference becomes rank speculation. This is why OHM prioritizes a third method: research. We want mappers to show their work: if you consulted a newspaper article, cite the article. If you traced an out-of-copyright map, tag the georeferenced map’s URL. If you had to guess a date out of a range of possible dates, there’s a syntax for that. And if you just came in from a field survey, that’s fine too.

Whenever tensions flare around abandoned railway mapping in OSM, I’m saddened to see someone distort what is clearly their personal passion in order to somehow shoehorn it into OSM’s rules and methods. Yes, it’s true that someone with a keen eye can spot a former trackbed in a field. Yes, as someone pointed out in Slack a couple years ago, a diver could potentially verify that these tracks from chapter 35 of Kudish have not yet disintegrated in the lakebed. But then what? Is that all there is to say about the Fonda, Johnstown and Gloversville Railroad? Whose idea was it to build a submerged railroad track, anyways? This rail coverage is devoid of context that would help users learn anything from it.

I would like to think that folks like @TNS-MN are actually conducting research, even as they try to pass it off as observation. Imagine how much happier and more productive they’d be if they could map their research, without having to make excuses. This has been my experience interacting with roadgeeks who similarly care about transportation history. One mapper in my area kept fudging rural highway classifications and mapping abandoned road alignments as the real thing, while making bold claims about improving the mobility of rural Americans left behind by Silicon Valley mapping companies. I wasn’t involved with OHM at the time, but I mentioned it to them and they took it very seriously. They quickly became one of OHM’s top road mappers in the U.S., unshackled from OSM’s arbitrary rules against historical mapping.

Both OSM and OHM need more success stories like this. I’m not much of a railfan, but I’ve never had more fun mapping abandoned railway lines than I have since joining OHM.

To be sure, research is hard. One thing leads to another and you wind up with too many tabs open. I spend hours poring over planning documents and newspaper archives just to be able to add a single building to the map. If a mob of mappers started musing about deleting my work, I’d take umbrage too. It’s not as easy as re-observing and re-mapping.

Despite the challenge of conducting rigorous research, there’s a certain joy in knowing that it’ll help someone connect the dots: why does the building have such a funny shape? What happened to the business that lent its name to the building? And guess what – anyone can do it, because unlike in other historical GIS projects, OHM wants everything to be mapped, even if academicians in an ivory tower would not deem it to be historically significant. I have mapped a favorite ice cream stand from my childhood and it gave me great pleasure. Take a break from the Internet, enjoy some ice cream, and then come back and share it with us on OHM.

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Instead of having to infer this from the ruins being in the vicinity of a railway=dismantled, would it make sense to explicitly record it with something like ruins=railway_support_pillar?

At first glance this would seem like a win-win, but perhaps I’m missing something.

Note: I haven’t looked into whether ruins=railway_support_pillar (or equivalent) is in use. Conceptually though, it would make sense?

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