Hi all,
I’d like to propose `PH as usual` to indicate that a POI has no special opening hours during a public holiday.
4 Likes
I like the idea but not sure about “as usual”. I first thought this mean as per the local countries norms. Maybe “PH unobserved” or “PH unchanged”.
If you want to use “as usual” then expand it to “open as usual” (or at least display that full phrase in the map editors)
5 Likes
I like both!
- unobserved could be used where there is a sign only telling the weekdays without PH info (often shops forget to post PH info in Austria as they in 99% must be closed on PH),
- unchanged could be used when you know its the same as whatever weekday it is, regardless of PH or not. Another word could be “PH same”.
I think any use of the word “observed” should be avoided as it can have two meanings in this context. To observe a public holiday means to respect it, i.e. to close. But mappers might think it has something to do with information being visible.
These could give contradictory results. In the above example, of shops in Austria thst don’t post the details because it’s assumed they will close, the shop observes the holiday but mappers don’t observe PH hours!
10 Likes
I’d rather see this in a separate tag as it just states “We checked the hours on PH, and what the opening_hours tag says is correct / not known if complete”. It just gives additional information to other mappers, not for the hours themselves.
Suggestion:
opening_hours:PH = unsigned | same
A value for closed is not needed, as this has to be part of the opening_hours.
We might want another key, as this one could be confused with the country code of the Philippines.
3 Likes
Completely unnecessary, simply don’t add PH to start with.
PS: not touching on all the other things wrong and broken about this proposal because it simply isn’t necessary.
7 Likes
Since it’s a subkey, it doesn’t really need to be abbreviated to avoid a character limit.
1 Like
Same here. I think what is meant is: same as usual for the day of the week and other conditons in the string. E.g. closed on mondays in summer remains closed on PH mondays in summer. I can’t come up with a better word or phrase, though.
Thinking about the alternatives to express this, I like this idea. I thought maybe use +PH in the time phrase to express “PH included”, but mappers would have to add that to every time phrase in the string.
how would you know the opening hours on a public holiday if the information is omitted?
3 Likes
people are expecting something to potentially change on public holidays, just leaving it out will lead to people having to resort to assumptions (maybe it’s like sundays? Maybe it’s just closed? Etc.) and ultimately leave them without the information. As PH is omitted very often, the mere absence of the tag is more an indicator that the value is incomplete than an information that nothing specific happens
6 Likes
Beyond a desire to place “PH” in the opening_hours value, the proposal in its present form lacks samples illustrating an actual need.
the solution with the common syntax is duplicating the rules, with PH as a qualifier, as long as the character limit can be respected. Having a keyword for PH as a pseudo weekday, to state nothing changes, seems beneficial and would make tagging more concise.
the sentence was “having a keyword… to state nothing changes”
1 Like
No, it’s not. If you read the full post in context, I think it’s clear that @dieterdreist is referring to having a keyword to be applied to PH (when used as a pseudo weekday) as per the original proposal.
As I understand it, the “issue” is that with something like opening_hours = Mo-Fr 09:00-17:00 you don’t know if it’s genuinely that, or that the mapper has forgotten to add some alternative PH hours. So it would be useful to be able to explicitly tag them, to remove this ambiguity. (Possibly this is slightly motivated by validators flagging missing PH definitions.)
In the case where the PH hours are different, you can simply add them to the opening_hours tag as usual. In the case where they are the same, if you want to explicitly tag them, the way to do it with the current syntax would be opening_hours = Mo-Fr 09:00-17:00; PH Mo-Fr 09:00-17:00 - i.e. duplicating the days and hours. This seems a bit unnecessarily verbose and makes maintenance harder, but it does work for this simple example. For more complicated ones, you might end up exceeding the 255 character limit. So the idea is to have a simpler way of explicitly saying that “the PH hours are the same as the equivalent normal day”. Hence the proposal.
I’m not sure where I stand on this. You might say there’s no need to explicitly tag the fact that PH hours are unchanged, i.e. you should just use opening_hours = Mo-Fr 09:00-17:00 and assume all mappers remember to add specific PH hours when needed. You might also argue that the existing mechanism to tag them as opening_hours = Mo-Fr 09:00-17:00; PH Mo-Fr 09:00-17:00 is fine.
If one does accept that it would be a good idea to have a simple PH modifier keyword, then the question is what would be best. I share the concerns expressed above about the different options that have been suggested. A single word would be easier for parsing. Of the ones suggested so far, I think my preference would be either PH unchanged or PH same.
5 Likes
So just tag
opening_hours = Mo-Fr,PH 09:00-17:00
Folks, you are really discussing a non-problem here.
Again reference to Proposing `PH as usual` as extra value - #9 by SimonPoole which should have stopped this thread dead in its tracks two hours ago.
3 Likes
I confess I didn’t know this, and I have never seen this example. My bad of course, 
, though I’m not alone in this…
Thanks for clearing this up.
If opening hours vary during the week, do we add ,PH to all the ranges? Or would that be conflicting?
Nope, it is just a “weekday” logically, just add it to the relevant ranges.
PS: I literally know this bit off by heart for more than a decade as it is one of the more painful things that you need handle (because of the parsing ambiguity) in an OH parser.