Proposed moderator for Greece forum

JayCBR · 2019-06-10T17:18:04.000Z

so someone who has one vote from map-finder, has no participation in the forum, no contact with other editors, someone who didnt even say he wants to be moderator gets to be one?how is this fair??

it is my opinion too that map-finder is mostly responsible for this mess, every time we try and have a conversation, bad things happen…we still dont know his openstreetmap username and he does not care sharing it

i dont think i can work with him any more

hariskar · 2019-06-10T17:25:15.000Z

I agree, someone who does not participate in the forum should not be a forum moderator.

nikospag · 2019-06-10T18:10:38.000Z

I totally disagree with kocio.
First of all JayCBR was not down-voted. The user who down-voted him at first, changed his/her vote later with a newer post . All posts with votes are right here in this thread. You can count them

Second. There never was a “fundamental problem” in this community, that’s why we never needed a moderator (for many years). The problem appeared lately, and has a name: Map-Finder.

Third. About user mappas i have already answered in a previous post. He is a good mapper, but he is not a member of this forum, because he doesn’t want to be. That’s his choice and that is his right. And of course, someone who never participated in this forum can not be a forum moderator.

PS. And i wonder if Map-Finder even asked for a permission before mention mappas name in here!!! That’s another reason to ban this person.

kocio · 2019-06-10T23:32:00.000Z

Thanks for pointing out - I’m not following closely that heated discussion and now it seems to me that no proposed person (out of 4) has been downvoted. So their propositions still hold up (everybody can propose anything), but next question is if they want to be moderators? That’s the right moment to answer this - I believe at the moment all propositions are still void, because nobody agreed. And to vote against, if you feel this is not the right person for this role, whatever the reasons are (including not being active on the forum) - we’re not judging the mapping efforts, only if do you think this is the right person for this exact role.

Please, speak short but direct. I understand that for example call for a ban would be indirect veto against somebody being moderator, but I’m not gonna to solve puzzles. In my opinion it’s better to shortly repeat yourselves than let me find, guess and make mistakes. Really, please.

And yes, if there are ban calls, DWG call and accusation of ruining community, I consider it to be a fundamental problem. This tension might make the moderator void, at least for now. If you think this is the case, please also tell it directly.

So - please, respond all these questions:

Who from the proposed people agree to be a moderator at all?
Who do you think should not be moderator (for whatever reasons)?
Do you think moderator election should be cancelled now, until ban calls etc are resolved?

hariskar · 2019-06-11T04:11:23.000Z

I would agree
Map-Finder, because his bad behavior is the cause we are asking for a moderator
No

kocio · 2019-06-11T06:34:43.000Z

Thanks for replying, but let me be clear - 1. is about proposed people agreeing (or not), not proposing anybody again, 2. it’s also against anyone proposed for moderator, not against anybody on Earth…

hariskar · 2019-06-11T07:04:02.000Z

I corrected my post.

kocio · 2019-06-11T11:18:32.000Z

Hi again,

Since I have received personal message that moderator election should postponed, I hereby close this thread now, because not everybody agree that it is the right thing at the moment. We can go back to this later, of course.

And since some of you requested DWG help, I also hand over the process of dealing with community problems to them. I hope you will be able to find some suitable solution.

hariskar · 2019-06-11T11:35:34.000Z

Who sent you personal message? I don’t agree to postpone it, we need a moderator now. Greek osm forum is full of off-topic posts. They have to be deleted…

nikospag · 2019-06-11T12:07:18.000Z

kocio:

Hi again,

Since I have received personal message that moderator election should postponed, I hereby close this thread now, because not everybody agree that it is the right thing at the moment. We can go back to this later, of course.

And since some of you requested DWG help, I also hand over the process of dealing with community problems to them. I hope you will be able to find some suitable solution.

WHAT???
THIS IS THE END (of me here).
And there is no problem, i BAN my self. That’s how communities are ruined.
PROBLEM SOLVED!!!

JayCBR · 2019-06-11T12:12:27.000Z

i agree
map-finder
no

i dont know who told you to postpone the vote, we need to tidy up the forum now

we can decide together the responsibilities of the moderator (for starters transfering off-topics, having distinct topics and not allowing personal attacks)

woodpeck · 2019-06-11T13:58:05.000Z

Hello,

I am a member of the OSMF Data Working Group and we have had several complaints about this discussion here (offtopic, bullying, toxic etc.etc.)

We are not normally involved in policing the forum but will do so if nothing else helps. I’ve discussed this thread with the forum administration and they’ve asked us to step in.

In general, there seem to be a couple of misconceptions here.

Off-topic postings are generally not something that needs a moderator. If one person posts off-topic and the rest of the community is disciplined enough then that shouldn’t be such a big issue. If the community is united in finding Map-Finder’s posts not worthy of a reply, then don’t reply - instead of calling for a ban. Bans should remain reserved for people who are abusive, not for people who are just (perceived to be) a nuisance.
A forum moderator’s job is not to make sticky posts with tagging instructions. A forum moderator who does that abuses their position. The wiki (where everyone has equal edit rights) is the canonical place for tagging documentation. Sticky posts in the forum can be about forum rules, or important events, or perhaps they can include a few frequently asked questions, but they are not there to explain how to tag toll booths.
A forum moderator does not have to post frequently on the forum. In fact, it can be better if it is someone who is usually not involved in discussions. Someone who is often involved in heated discussions would have it very difficult to be a good forum moderator.
Ideally, in a healthy forum, a forum moderator makes use of their privileges once or twice a month. The job of a forum moderator is not to tell everyone what to do all the time!
Being a forum moderator is not a position of power or a reward for good deeds; it is a position of service to the community. A forum moderator must be respected by the overwhelming majority of the forum or else they will not be able to do a good job.

(As a side note, I noticed someone writing that “we don’t know Map-Finder’s OSM user name” but what about https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/Map-Finder?))

So, please everybody calm down, and we’ll see what we can do about that moderator question.

Bye
Frederik

JayCBR · 2019-06-11T14:11:00.000Z

the main problem is there are several different posts with similar, even identical topics

tagging instructions belong to the wiki

about personal attacks etc, the moderator could warn the perp to avoid confrontations

woodpeck · 2019-06-12T11:41:57.000Z

Hello,

the DWG has decided that we’ll ask the user mappas to serve as an interim moderator on this forum, until the community is able to peacefully and calmly select one or more moderators in a yet-to-be-defined democratic process.

The DWG has no members who can read Greek, hence we cannot take this job ourselves. I have the utmost confidence in mappas to be impartial. I know that some of you have doubts because mappas has not participated in the forum in the past, but I think this makes him a better candidate for the post because he has not “taken sides”. mappas is an experienced mapper and a long-standing member of the Greek OSM community and I trust that he’s going to help everyone to calm down and make the forum a place where everyone can make a positive contribution again.

mappas has the DWG’s full support in taking any measures necessary to stop unpleasant conversations, including closing threads that spin off into off-topic discussions, blocking users for a short time if they don’t follow his requests, or deleting posts if necessary.

I would be happy if you didn’t test his patience right away, and try to behave well. For those of you who post a lot, try to limit yourselves a little - if everybody tries not to be the person with the most posts in any given week, then much is gained already. Nobody is so important or so clever that they need to say their opinion on every single topic, or possibly say the same opinion 10 times

Please join me in welcoming mappas to this new role, and please extend to him the same trust that I do.

Bye
Frederik

hariskar · 2019-06-12T11:47:14.000Z

I suppose this is good news, welcome mappas. I hope you will make our small society overcome the problems we have lately!

JayCBR · 2019-06-12T14:01:33.000Z

mappas was proposed only by map-finder who obviously knows him…well done for not choosing sides

he didnt even comment on his “candidacy”

your latest decisions are tearing this forum apart…nikospag is already out and one of my feet is already out the door

woodpeck · 2019-06-12T15:20:02.000Z

JayCBR:

mappas was proposed only by map-finder who obviously knows him…well done for not choosing sides

I was well aware of this previous contact but this was a result of mappas trying to make contact with many different mappers. Map-Finder and mappas do not (to my knowledge) have any acquaintance prior to that. Please stop questioning my decision. I would not have gotten involved if you had been able to sort this matter out yourselves.

JayCBR:

your latest decisions are tearing this forum apart…nikospag is already out

nikospag has announced over 6 weeks ago that he was leaving (https://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?pid=746259#p746259) so you can hardly attribute that to events of the last few days.

JayCBR:

and one of my feet is already out the door

I would prefer if people could just be friendly & work with the new moderator instead of complaining on day one, but those who prefer not to work with the new moderator are of course free to leave. Don’t let the door hit you on the way out.

Bye
Frederik

JayCBR · 2019-06-12T15:44:19.000Z

nikospag wanted to leave because of map-finder, who is the reason we need a moderator anyway

and now you appoint as moderator someone he proposed

btw where is mappas?he didnt even acknowledge his candidacy, what he plans to do with the forum

is this how you decide things? what i have to say i say it in the forum for everyone to see, not personally

Don’t let the door hit you on the way out

nice attitude there

mappas · 2019-06-12T18:43:36.000Z

Thanks for the welcoming messages

I would also like to thank kocio, forum administrators, the DWG and Frederik for their time and effort to help the Greek forum.

Please be patient as I get to know how things work on a technical level.

You can help me by sending suggestions on what needs to get done. I am going to read every thread, to see if I can spot the most urgent needed actions.

woodpeck:

JayCBR:

mappas was proposed only by map-finder who obviously knows him…well done for not choosing sides

I was well aware of this previous contact but this was a result of mappas trying to make contact with many different mappers. Map-Finder and mappas do not (to my knowledge) have any acquaintance prior to that. Please stop questioning my decision. I would not have gotten involved if you had been able to sort this matter out yourselves.

Just to confirm this: In the last couple of weeks, I have sent messages to some users (forum regulars, and users editing the map close to my location), in order to meet face to face. It just so happened that Map-Finder was the only one that was available. We met for a coffee, and we may cooperate on some project in the future. That’s all.

So… let’s get things done everyone

JayCBR · 2019-06-12T20:32:06.000Z

We met for a coffee, and we may cooperate on some project in the future. That’s all.

oh wow, looks like i was right after all, map-finder, the person who accused most of the forum members for plotting against him, just because they disagree, goes behind our backs and gets his friend to be moderator

just to be clear: i dont have anything personal with mappas, he could be the best guy, but this is unacceptable

i m happy for mappas to be moderator if map-finder leaves and so is nikospag, i dont even need to ask him