I think that’s the key point - having cruft in the database that doesn’t get in anyone’s way shouldn’t be a problem for anyone, but having cruft that people actually have to maintain definitely is.
An example of the former that lives in the database and no-one cares about is the abutters key - it was widely used in the very early years of the project before the concept of landuse was a thing, but almost no-one uses it now.
completely pointless tags can and should be deleted (say favourite_tree_of_mateusz_konieczny=yes or skip_in_app_foobar=yes colour_this_shop_as=green or apply_processing=skiboar or mapped_by=Username or added_by | Keys | OpenStreetMap Taginfo or cosmha | Keys | OpenStreetMap Taginfo or project=)
Such tags are problematic as they confuse new mappers and may mislead them into thinking it is acceptable or a good idea.
I think it’s about indicating that a node is part of a curve by mapping two tangent points and one or two nodes in between. This way curves can be drawn and not just straight lines. The tag is good but nodes cannot be moved from one place to the other unless you know what you’re doing and sometimes the tag must be removed. Using this tag will probably cause chaos so I’m against using it.
It’s for professionals.
Edit: I’m not answering to Jeroen only. How can I change this?
(offtopic aside)
That’s just the “unusual” way that this forum works. I tend to make it more obvious by manually quoting a bit of what I am replying to, like I did here.
New mappers use translated presets from ID - From my experience they dont even KNOW the tag keys or values.
And no - I still think OSM is a place for domain specific tags.
So i still oppose deleting those.
Flo
To be honest, if you only had 1 favourite tree, that one tagged object is unlikely to confuse. If you have 1000s, then it might.
Domain specific is fine. But tags that are brittle in subtle ways that aren’t obvious to a new user are problematic. If you use tags to define geometry in such a way that moving a point causes your geometry to be messed up, then you’re placing an undue maintenance burden on every other user.
As in the original message the usage is completely unknown. So how can you tell its brittle or what its used for.
Thats the whole point. You THINK thats its bullshit, your THINK its brittle, you have NO clue about the application and what to delete something the only point is that you dont have any information about.
And as there is no knowledge about its usage you cant even tell anything about maintenance burden as noone knows about it.
So just leave it alone. People who care shall maintain it. No burden for anyone else i can see.
Flo
That’s fine with me but how is this tag to be used?
A tag on a random node in a way without documentation (except an abandonded proposal from 2017) which can be removed or shifted anywhere without any error message IS bullshit.
If any application is making use of such tag there should be some documentation in the wiki as OSM is not a private project but a community project as far as I understand. So everyone should have simple access to information about what any tag is used for.
If someone comes across such nodes while finetuning ways and does not dare to touch or delete them because of being afraid to make a mistake it IS a burden.
My voice for getting rid of it.
new people start using JOSM or at least iD tag listing every day - and yes, weird or inappropriate tags cause confusion for them
I am not claiming that it is problem for every single new mapper, vast majority of them probably does not know what tags even are
noone wants to delete them because these are domain specific tags, and many domain specific tags should be removed from OSM.
in the same way, tags with “_” character have place in OSM, but it does not mean that tags with “_” character cannot be ever removed from OSM.
and third post links Proposal:Curve geometry - OpenStreetMap Wiki so these tags are not some grand mystery
And this tag is not some decent idea, it is a manual preprocessing again:
Some map processing applications disregard nodes along a way and only include the first/last nodes. This tag allows these significant nodes to be identified and included.
which is a terrible idea that should be ejected as soon as spotted
I’m pretty sure existing usage differs from the proposal in some fundamental way, but it’s hard to say exactly because the manner of usage was never documented. It’s a problem whenever someone single-handedly co-opts a tag without documenting why, and even to some extent after documenting why (as we saw in the service=driveway2 debacle).
I agree that we should maintain a degree of humility when dealing with any-tag-you-like mapping. However, that doesn’t necessarily mean the original mapper’s choice must be set in stone.
Here in the U.S., @NE2 pioneered many domain-specific keys like note:lanes, centre_turn_lane, and NHS. Some of these choices turned out to be a poor fit for OSM tag naming conventions, so we’ve gradually replaced them with better alternatives like lanes:forward and lanes:both_ways, while others were more palatable, so we documented them as is.
In the spirit of avoiding dataloss, what is the alternative to these curve_geometry tags? If we can be sure that, in practice, they represent hints to round off corners, then in the process of removing these tags, we should actually round off the corners by splining the roadway with more precise nodes. All renderers would benefit, not just the one mysterious proprietary one that supposedly uses curve_geometry.
But if these curve_geometry nodes represent control points as originally proposed, then I’m unsure what to replace the tag with. Moreover, I’m also unsure how many times I’ve subtly broken these nodes because I touched nearby geometry without noticing them. Such is the risk of relying on ATYL for something so advanced without coordinating with other mappers and software developers. Assuming I’m not the only mapper in this position, how much can this one supposed data consumer even rely on the tag anymore?
well, in such case usefulness and usability of tag is even lower
good point, it may be worth to process some sample manually and check whether it is reliable indicator of places where standard way of representing geometry of way (by modifying geometry of way) should be used instead of unusual tags
In the spirit of avoiding dataloss, what is the alternative to these
curve_geometrytags? If we can be sure that, in practice, they represent hints to round off corners, then in the process of removing these tags, we should actually round off the corners by splining the roadway with more precise nodes.
this is not the same, augmenting resolution of the angular representation of a curve and stating that a line should be curved.
Well, it isn’t the same, but doesn’t that amount to a fixme=geometry if practically no data consumer would understand it and it doesn’t stand a realistic chance of gaining more support in the foreseeable future? A way’s geometry is a pretty fundamental concept, not some micromapping detail to be handwaved.
To recap my understanding of the situation:
extra_curves tag that they never explained.)curve_geometry tags (not just as part of deleting the parent way), while nine have intentionally added them. At a glance, the additions appear to be for a variety of purposes:
In several cases, the mappers who added this tag have been asked about it, but none has responded.
The tag curve_geometry=* seems to be a tag with unclear meaning. I think there are two possible ways on how we can deal with such a tag:
In this discussion there are already 10 people involved. And no one (including me) seems to be able to define the meaning of curve_geometry=*.
I did some analysis with overpass and was able to generate a list with usernames. The users are the ones with the last edit of a node, way or relation with curve_geometry=*. The list of the nearly 400 people can be found below.
@nickvet419 you seem to be the only person with a lot (more than 50) of edited curve_geometry=* objects who has a matching forum account name. Can you help us understand the meaning of this tag?
| user | number |
|---|---|
| GidonW | 2984 |
| erantr1 | 1903 |
| Guy Zohar | 1382 |
| snake21 | 766 |
| noa_m | 763 |
| nickvet419 | 352 |
| Gil Schaechter | 344 |
| brevans | 332 |
| SemanticT0urist | 323 |
| PioneerSquare45 | 145 |
| MapCam | 83 |
| Andrew Matheny_import | 80 |
| mitchelldm | 77 |
| RopponggiHills | 69 |
| BatsmanMapsman | 49 |
| Abdelrahman_mahmoud | 48 |
| e pt | 47 |
| Florimondable | 47 |
| gymsNmaps | 45 |
| Siguatepeque | 45 |
| stand_it | 44 |
| michael60101 | 43 |
| Clarke22 | 42 |
| yossaito | 40 |
| jimjoe45 | 38 |
| BurntSteam | 37 |
| Andrew Matheny | 36 |
| brandonmcfadd | 36 |
| Gisolic | 35 |
| Akgeo | 34 |
| maximummap | 32 |
| phiphou | 30 |
| Fluffy89502 | 30 |
| MacLondon | 30 |
| magrej | 29 |
| Artibonite | 28 |
| Sal73x | 28 |
| LakatosVL | 27 |
| ArchesPark | 26 |
| Delocuro | 25 |
| KB-01 | 24 |
| Marc Mongenet | 24 |
| Michelle Liang | 24 |
| Perfal | 24 |
| Russell722 | 23 |
| 99of9 | 22 |
| DavidKewley | 22 |
| joshuaseed | 22 |
| oba510 | 21 |
| Pamir20 | 21 |
| RunTrails | 21 |
| Smitology | 21 |
| stst415 | 21 |
| Zol87 | 21 |
| amircah91 | 20 |
| AntBurnett | 20 |
| Britzz | 20 |
| KindredCoda | 20 |
| linus_at | 20 |
| Winultimate | 20 |
| guiguimapper2002 | 19 |
| JÉT | 19 |
| Mikhail1412 | 19 |
| Shamokin | 19 |
| OrenF | 18 |
| Nour Ayman | 16 |
| ConsEbt | 15 |
| j numminen | 15 |
| Meersbrook | 15 |
| Misa_zumba | 15 |
| PAL3001 | 15 |
| vrynkevich_lyft | 15 |
| Yonatan Chamish | 15 |
| DaleOfAire | 14 |
| kmarkish_lyft | 14 |
| Rudy355 | 14 |
| BrackoNe | 13 |
| JAAS | 13 |
| jula_2106 | 13 |
| vaibhavnz | 13 |
| 2hu4u | 12 |
| clay_c | 12 |
| dbqeditor | 12 |
| mannux | 12 |
| Oconomowoc | 12 |
| stick2 | 12 |
| Supt_of_Printing | 12 |
| cquest | 11 |
| Emey_lyft | 11 |
| kan_kan | 11 |
| Neesa | 11 |
| Phil Scherer | 11 |
| Radek_trz | 11 |
| Russ | 11 |
| ika-chan! UK-USA | 10 |
| kurugunk | 10 |
| lxbarth | 10 |
| Timothy Smith | 10 |
| AndjelaS | 9 |
| anilkgba | 9 |
| Black_Diamond | 9 |
| DareDJ | 9 |
| KingRichardV | 9 |
| Marting77 | 9 |
| Supaplex030 | 9 |
| bspecht | 8 |
| flierfy | 8 |
| jeffxf | 8 |
| knight_moves | 8 |
| miha12 | 8 |
| Nrg800 | 8 |
| oanac2_telenav | 8 |
| puzzlefan | 8 |
| rusefkuma | 8 |
| Shadi Alshabi | 8 |
| zyxzyx | 8 |
| DrDurance | 7 |
| gionax | 7 |
| GobiDesert | 7 |
| Halfdeaf007 | 7 |
| huonw | 7 |
| James_Griffiths | 7 |
| KySy | 7 |
| luxiaghd | 7 |
| Moult | 7 |
| NickJOB | 7 |
| NW757 | 7 |
| o68 | 7 |
| smikhnouski_lyft | 7 |
| acres1nvented | 6 |
| aharvey | 6 |
| akuksouski_lyft | 6 |
| arichnad | 6 |
| cbllkev | 6 |
| ecatmur | 6 |
| mama_bear | 6 |
| Nockamixon | 6 |
| Rob-au | 6 |
| StenSoft | 6 |
| Wey2go | 6 |
| YuliyaShustava_lyft | 6 |
| حبيشان | 6 |
| aleksaJov | 5 |
| amakarevich_lyft | 5 |
| arkdatta | 5 |
| khajurun | 5 |
| luked2000 | 5 |
| Msalmanq | 5 |
| Netzach | 5 |
| peregrination | 5 |
| Peter Newman | 5 |
| Ploto | 5 |
| quikee | 5 |
| Random Person | 5 |
| rolandmwagner | 5 |
| sirorezka | 5 |
| Stephen214 | 5 |
| teodorab_telenav | 5 |
| WoodWoseWulf | 5 |
| yanisperron | 5 |
| amarajz | 4 |
| bogdan_andrei | 4 |
| borovac | 4 |
| egordobatovkin | 4 |
| jamenimm | 4 |
| johnparis | 4 |
| kvenkatl | 4 |
| Luis36995 | 4 |
| Map builder user | 4 |
| Matthew Grund | 4 |
| nevw | 4 |
| njtbusfan | 4 |
| okwithmydecay | 4 |
| ortho_is_hot | 4 |
| pravenya | 4 |
| Rallysta74 | 4 |
| roberts_telenav | 4 |
| ruggs | 4 |
| salma_z | 4 |
| unknowndomain | 4 |
| VLD062 | 4 |
| yasslay | 4 |
| Σεραφειμ | 4 |
| Alexey Lukin | 3 |
| AndrewS | 3 |
| atlas-3d | 3 |
| BrandonAGr | 3 |
| Carto’Cité | 3 |
| dhaird | 3 |
| finfly_99 | 3 |
| Gangadi Anusha | 3 |
| guybrush127 | 3 |
| Kouji915 | 3 |
| Lockstar | 3 |
| mubshh | 3 |
| n76 | 3 |
| Peter Heald | 3 |
| RainbowReef | 3 |
| ralley | 3 |
| samely | 3 |
| seav | 3 |
| SemanticTourist | 3 |
| shushmit | 3 |
| SirTopRamen | 3 |
| sivachak | 3 |
| someart13 | 3 |
| sskalyan | 3 |
| Steven Vance | 3 |
| TreeTracks | 3 |
| txemt | 3 |
| wille | 3 |
| Mathieu | 2 |
| amsshalo | 2 |
| ArminGh | 2 |
| asdf1234 | 2 |
| ashs_as | 2 |
| ashybko_lyft | 2 |
| Benoît C MdP | 2 |
| Benzauderer | 2 |
| Bobby_Boom | 2 |
| Caledonia659 | 2 |
| Cape8 | 2 |
| captain_slow | 2 |
| ChelSeaTheWorld | 2 |
| Chusovaya | 2 |
| darkemyst | 2 |
| DavidDrax | 2 |
| di4tu2 | 2 |
| DUGA | 2 |
| enjawoke | 2 |
| geocruizer | 2 |
| guyporter | 2 |
| jangah1 | 2 |
| Javelin1994 | 2 |
| Jean-Marc Liotier | 2 |
| JesseAKARaccoon | 2 |
| Jojons | 2 |
| jraller | 2 |
| karmsudi | 2 |
| karragha | 2 |
| KingstonPike | 2 |
| Kivi | 2 |
| mapash | 2 |
| markbegbie | 2 |
| markzawi | 2 |
| mash84121 | 2 |
| Mikey Co | 2 |
| Montebest | 2 |
| mrpulley | 2 |
| Ollie | 2 |
| Palolo | 2 |
| pmarkina_lyft | 2 |
| prasadtx | 2 |
| ramthelinefeed | 2 |
| rojganes | 2 |
| SabineSW | 2 |
| sellyme | 2 |
| Shhoo | 2 |
| telcodude | 2 |
| Truchin | 2 |
| VLD157 | 2 |
| VLD175 | 2 |
| VLD273 | 2 |
| vsahith | 2 |
| Yom | 2 |
| YTaulai_lyft | 2 |
| عثمان ਉਸਮਾਨ bgo_eiu | 2 |
| 近場行き | 2 |
| _yog | 1 |
| A_Prokopova_lyft | 1 |
| abvincen | 1 |
| achantav | 1 |
| adlid | 1 |
| AmeliaMag | 1 |
| amzmkuma | 1 |
| atsialiak_lyft | 1 |
| avssr | 1 |
| aya1985 | 1 |
| BartekChom | 1 |
| bazgal | 1 |
| bhavyakota | 1 |
| Bolt017 | 1 |
| Bolt043 | 1 |
| BubbleGuppies | 1 |
| Cactux1122 | 1 |
| calcium990 | 1 |
| catalinad_telenav | 1 |
| ChaireMobiliteKaligrafy | 1 |
| ChookMan | 1 |
| civitano | 1 |
| danbjoseph | 1 |
| DannyAiquipa | 1 |
| Ddoolittle86 | 1 |
| Deciduous Waffle | 1 |
| Denis_Helfer | 1 |
| Diego Esteban Alonso Blas | 1 |
| Diego Sanguinetti | 1 |
| Dimitar155 | 1 |
| dirtyidol | 1 |
| doublah | 1 |
| dqn | 1 |
| DzmitryBachkarou | 1 |
| Euclid71 | 1 |
| Falsernet | 1 |
| Fivea | 1 |
| gohimans | 1 |
| Harry Wood | 1 |
| higa4 | 1 |
| Himké | 1 |
| hoream_telenav | 1 |
| idkwhatname2use | 1 |
| itsafrogslife | 1 |
| Iztaccihuatl | 1 |
| JaneOwl | 1 |
| jmty8 | 1 |
| Joseph R P | 1 |
| kartonage | 1 |
| Khomille | 1 |
| kleroux | 1 |
| ksnghr | 1 |
| KVI0n | 1 |
| LACDH | 1 |
| lacram_telenav | 1 |
| LibertyWentWest | 1 |
| Linfindel | 1 |
| little_maper | 1 |
| locke | 1 |
| lrysiukevich_lyft | 1 |
| mahmedqg | 1 |
| manings | 1 |
| mapper175 | 1 |
| Mara | 1 |
| Maradona11 | 1 |
| markm851003 | 1 |
| Mauls | 1 |
| maxolasersquad | 1 |
| mihaii_telenav | 1 |
| mike140 | 1 |
| mirelal_telenav | 1 |
| miroslavuzice87 | 1 |
| Mortein | 1 |
| mundlk | 1 |
| Nadeaua | 1 |
| nallivn | 1 |
| nattatatatat | 1 |
| Nick Parker | 1 |
| nihaalr | 1 |
| nlehuby | 1 |
| OrdinaryScarlett | 1 |
| overflorian | 1 |
| pbobbili | 1 |
| Penobscot | 1 |
| pkoby | 1 |
| ppjj | 1 |
| promiseofbirth | 1 |
| pshalyt_lyft | 1 |
| Psykle | 1 |
| PulisakZ | 1 |
| rapchira | 1 |
| RockCreekPark | 1 |
| Seandebasti | 1 |
| shahed alsheyab | 1 |
| shilpi sarkar | 1 |
| Skogafoss | 1 |
| speaketh | 1 |
| srividya_c | 1 |
| stadtob_rk | 1 |
| Stephen Males | 1 |
| sunilaak | 1 |
| Swihail | 1 |
| TacoBeans44 | 1 |
| TheConductor | 1 |
| TheHunt | 1 |
| threefoursixninefour | 1 |
| tmadhuli | 1 |
| Tom Lee | 1 |
| unnsyeda | 1 |
| vardhamk | 1 |
| Velfo | 1 |
| VijitVijayan | 1 |
| Vladislav Konoplev | 1 |
| VLD165 | 1 |
| VLD166 | 1 |
| vogelfreier | 1 |
| WakatobiPark | 1 |
| whammo | 1 |
| YellowberryHN | 1 |
| Yod4z | 1 |
| yxoc | 1 |
| ZakharP | 1 |
| Zian Choy | 1 |
| zmoore_lyft | 1 |
[out:csv(::user, ::version, ::timestamp;',')]
[timeout:25];
(
nwr["curve_geometry"]({{bbox}});
);
out meta;
This query can only find curve_geometry nodes that mappers have incidentally touched without necessarily adding the tag, for example by moving a way that happens to touch the node or repurposing the node for something else (rendering the tag meaningless). Your list includes many of the people OSMCha identifies as having intentionally removed curve_geometry in the past year, including @nickvet419.
From the top of your list, the DWG has been involved with both @GidonW and @erantr1 over this matter. The former wrote the abandoned proposal on the wiki on behalf of their organization but is no longer active in OSM. The latter is active, but I don’t know if they’re affiliated; their usage seems to differ.
I made another analysis that looks at object history - and will not attribute use to someone who moved node or added another tag (still, some false positives to be expected). But shows main users, who dominated tag use. 12463 in total, 6093+2314+2254+1138=11799 - 95% of all uses.
using
import who_added_this_tag
config = {
'key': 'curve_geometry',
'value': None, # may be None - in such case it looks for all values of key
'area_identifier_key': None, # may be None, in such case search is worldwide, 'ISO3166-1' is a good identifier
'area_identifier_value': 'PL', # ignored if area_identifier_key is None
'list_all_edits': True,
'list_all_edits_made_by_this_users': [], # ignored with list_all_edits set to True
}
who_added_this_tag.statistics.process_case(config)
# https://community.openstreetmap.org/t/proposal-to-delete-all-curve-geometry-tags/106627
see full results at User:Mateusz Konieczny/test - OpenStreetMap Wiki
Thanks - at least one user has acknowledged changeset comments about this tag and have said that they will reply here.