Hier trifft beides zu. Es ist ein Gebäude mit shop=farm, Selbstbedienung und bezahlen per Kasse des Vertrauens. Zusätzlich befinden sich im Gebäude Automaten mit Geldeinwurf bzw Kartenzahlung.
I think the main difference between these small stalls and “normal” shops (in German “Geschäften”) is, that the offered goods are stored outside - this is usually not expected with shops in daily life. shop=* in combination with location=outdoor could be a possibility to describe this situation.
With this approach, the wide variety of shop=* could be used for these small stands and there would be no need to introduce a new tag. shop=* would then apply to all kinds of retail sales, except vending machines.
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Is this a typo and you mean “the definition shouldn’t require cash as a payment method”?
If yes, I agree.
Ok, so far, the consensus seems to be:
- No new tag (you convinced me of that as well)
- It has nothing to do with payment methods (i.e. those are tagged seperately and are not implied)
- A tendency to use
shop=*and tag it additionally withself_service=yes,opening_hours=24/7(if applicable).
How would everyone feel about that?
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Yep, typo.
it works for me
I doubt that it makes sense to stretch an existing tag to make it fit for these small roadside stands. They are not really “shops” and in many cases have nothing to do with “farm”, as you mentioned already.
A farm shop usually is a real small shop operated by a farm, either in a small wooden cabin or using a covered trailer or such, offering quite a wide range of farm procuce and products. That is something entirely different than a small roadside self-service stand.
If we want to use the “shop” key for these, we should use a value which makes clear what it is, like
shop=booth or shop=road_stand or the like.
By doing so we would ensure that every road stand could get the same main tag, independent from the kind of goods sold. For everything else like type of payment accepted, self-service, opening hours, products/produce sold etc. there are established tags already.
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Without getting ahead of ourselves here, what would be the next step (assuming all agree)? The end goal is to create a wiki page documenting how to tag those stands. Do we need an entire Proposal process for that or do we (or rather I) just create the wiki page?
Ok, so the question is whether to use existing shop=* values that try to convey the type of goods sold there (e.g. vegetables, bread, drinks) or a new shop=booth (or whatever) that needs the information added what it sells (with vending=* goods=*?
That seems reasonable, I like it a lot.
It seems like the major advantage of using shop would be to use the existing shop values that communicate the goods sold, as it would easily allow data consumers to treat a place that sells vegetables the same whether it be a traditional storefront or an unstaffed stand on the side of the road. They’d both be shop=greengrocer or shop=farm.
In the US, I’ve come across stands like those described here that could be reasonably be tagged with: shop=fuel, fuel=firewood, shop=bakery, shop=dairy, shop=art.
Something like shop=booth communicates a lot about the physical space used, but nothing about the goods sold, which seems at odds with most other values of shop. If there’s a strong desire to communicate that these are different than regular shops, seems like a separate tag (or just amenity=vending_machine?) would be the way to go.
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This is correct, but you have to die one way or the other. Tagging the shops as you said would be fine but then we need a proper new tag to specify the kind of object being a small roadside stand and not a real shop nor a vending_machine.
Tagging the shop as roadside stand would make it necessary to tag the sold goods by
vending=firewood or bread or dairy_produces, or art etc.
As the range of products offered by a roadside stand is very limited I still believe this would be a good solution.
I can see both points really. I think both have their pros and cons:
shop=*
- Pro: Easier for data consumers to read
- Con: More limited in the choice of possibly offered products, not really a good option if several unique products are offered (wine & cheese)
shop=booth and vending=*
- Con: Hard for data consumers to read
- Con: New value for
shopintroduced - Pro: Allows very specific tagging of offered goods
- Pro: Allows data consumers to easily filter for those roadside stands, which would be hard otherwise.
I personally prefer the shop=booth and vending=* or shop=yes and vending=* (even though use of shop=yes is discouraged).
How about another poll? 
shop=boothandvending=*shop=*- None of the options appeal to me.
0
voters
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Yeah, fair, if these aren’t shops, they aren’t vending machines either.
I think my main misgiving with using a generic value to represent these on the shop key is that, unlike many of OSM’s other top-level tags, shop still provides a nice hierarchy:
- if an object has a
shopkey – you know it’s a place you can buy stuff - you can then look at
shop=valueto know what the category of stuff you can buy - and you potentially can look at more detailed keys to understand more specifics about what’s being sold in very specific cases.
This means if you are a data consumer rendering icons in your map for business on your maps – you can do nice custom icons for shop=greengrocer shop=pet_store and shop=alcohol, but for anything with a shop value you don’t handle – you can just render a nice generic shopping bag icon (Obviously it’s not perfect, a shopping bag icon on a shop=funeral_directors might not be the most appropriate – but it’s much better than the total lack of hierarchy in many other top-level keys).
shop=booth would break the hierarchy, where as a data consumer, now you either need a special case when shop == booth – to look at vending to know whats being sold or exclude shop=booth entirely.
I don’t really have a strong opinion on if these things should be represented by shop=<category of thing they sell> or not – though if we don’t go that route I’d be much inclined to introduce amenity=road_stand with vending (or something like that) over starting to break the existing pretty good shop tag hierarchy.
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Is it really not a real shop? What is really missing?
What if it would be in a building?
Or with some enforcement of payment?
Is either of these really distinguishing it from being a shop?
If it is not a shop then using shop=booth is definitely a bad idea.
If it is a shop, just use regular shop tags
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I generally agree with your argumentation and yes, it would not be good to break an existing and useful hierarchy. On the other hand we do already have shop=mall, wholesale or kiosk going in the same direction as booth or road_stand.
Anyhow I proposes shop=booth/road_stand mainly to keep it in line with other objects selling goods, although in real life no one would call a roadsite stand a shop imho. I would not have any objection to go for
and that does also fit as a reply to:
I’m less interested in the specific shop and payment tags since they are based the particular shop. I would suggest adding “honesty_box” to something like self-service or making it its own tag. This would make it simpler to tag other establishments with a similar honor system. Such as training programs and shops run by charities who expect payment based on income level.
Like to mention the current Wiki definition of shops, which certainly includes these kinds of stands:
A shop is a place selling retail products or services.
IMO, those stands are as much of a shop, as vending machines.
Those are not tagged with shop=*, but with amenity=vending_machine and vending=*. Ideally, one would combine those under a single umbrella term, and could specify whether it is automated or not.
This might be a new proposal though and I do not know how people would feel about this. Thoughts?
Alternatively, amenity=vending_booth and vending=* could be a good option.
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We have had amenity=road_stand + vending=* so far, but amenity=vending_booth is also fine with me and would even be a good supplement to the existing amenity=vending_machine tag … 
.