Please don’t keep posting “travel news” here; it’s not relevant. We know that Somalia claims that it controls the area that you are interested in. We also believe (based on this post above) that Somaliland also claims that area.
Three days ago I asked the deleting user to join this discussion. Their last edit was a couple of months ago, so we may need to wait a little while for them to be in a position to comment - 3 days certainly isn’t long enough. Please be patient.
I only tagged you because you requested evidence (will link picture). Andy I wouldn’t have tagged you if that was the case. Also this may not be relevant to you or others but is very relevant to me, as the person who deleted it believes SSC-K doesn’t even exist nor does it control any territory. So hopefully when he does come back online and see this he will see my strong case in why SSC deserves to be on the map and that he was completely wrong in deleting it.
I’ve provided you both — as you requested — the greatest evidence known to man: the Prime Minister of Somalia visiting SSC-Khatumo for the first time in history. If that isn’t considered on-the-ground evidence and de facto control, then I don’t know what OSM’s policy actually is.
Thanks
I did - and you replied with pictures of a person visiting a place. I then (3 days ago) asked the person who deleted the relation to comment. Two days ago you posted more holiday snaps, and again 1 day ago, and again 1 hour ago.
Please be patient until we can get a point of view from the other side of the dispute. Posts repeating the same message will make people less likely to want to help you, not more.
Hi, and thank you for bringing this to my attention.
My main issue with including Khatumo is the fact that firstly, it has only been recognized as an interim administration for two years awaiting its recognition as a full federal state. Since it is not a federal state yet (even Somaliland which is de facto independent is still on paper a federal state) I see no reason to include it. You wouldn’t include territories controlled by rebel groups, and there are a dime a dozen clan groups and quasi administrations across Somalia with no representation.
Secondly, Khatumo’s borders have not been demarcated and are very fuzzy as control fluctuates due to clashes with Somaliland forces. There are no hard borders on the ground at the moment. The currently proposed borders are problematic as it includes areas that are indisputably part of and controlled by Somaliland and Puntland and which Khaatumo itself hasn’t even laid claim to officially. The map below is a more accurate depictions of the claimed area.
Which is roughly in-line with the territories inhabited by the Dhulbahante clan who represent Khaatumo.
In conclusion we should wait for the stabilisation of the situation, recognition of Khaatumo as a full federal member state as well as the demarcation of borders before we add it to the map as to not jump the gun. The fact that Somalia’s Prime Minister is set to visit Las Anod as Somaliland is issuing statements and possibly preparing for war shows that the situation is still very volatile.
“ My main issue with including Khatumo is the fact that firstly, it has only been recognized as an interim administration for two years awaiting its recognition as a full federal state. Since it is not a federal state yet”
Your excuse for excluding SSC-Khatumo from OpenStreetMap is both dishonest and politically motivated. SSC-Khatumo is not just some “interim” admin it has been recognized as a full federal member state by the Somali Federal Government.
Proof:
The Prime Minister of Somalia is currently in Las Canod, the capital of SSC-Khatumo, meeting with its legitimate leadership and federal institution
The massive delegation, includes:
• Minister of Foreign Affairs
• Minister of Internal Security
• Minister of Planning
• Minister of Federal Affairs
• Minister of Education
• Deputy Minister of Information
• Members of Somali Parliament
• Chief of the Somali Police Force
•Somali National Army commanders
Picture Prime Minister of Somalia meeting with SSc Khatumo president:
Picture of ministers sitting front row for prime minister speech in Las Canod (yesterday):
This is unprecedented in over 30 years not since the collapse of the Somali state has a top federal official set foot in this region to formally recognize and work with its local administration. That alone destroys your argument.
Your claim that “Somaliland is threatening war” is another weak argument you could make and it proves my entire point: you don’t threaten war or issue paper statements over land you control or lost.
OpenStreetMap’s own policy is clear: mapping should reflect de facto control and facts on the ground, not political fantasies or deliberate misrepresentation of reality.
SSC-Khatumo is a full federal member state which has its own:
• President
• Vice President
• Parliament
• Ministers of Govt
•Police
•Military
•Intelligence Agency
Prime minister of Somalia visiting SSC-Khatumo Parliament and giving a speech:
Branches of Military and police briefing the president
No more can we sit idly and allow SSC to be lumped together with somaliland or Puntland. SSC is no longer disputed it is a reality it is a full fledged state ran by its own government and secured by its own people.
Thanks
So, @bobo10 @Balli_Abokor I’m from far away european country you might not even know where to look for it xD
I opened gugle map just now, zoomed out so that i could see earth is round there (or so they lie to us), looked around Africa and started wondering if i shouldn’t look in Asia instead ;d
But lucky i found Somalia to the right and started to wonder if i even care if part of it is called Somalia and part Somaliland, but appearently OSM say it’s something like “Soomaaliya” in Latin letters?
Anyway, you guys see… it’s not about you. It’s about all the other people around the world how they see and call you.
Personally, I don’t care. I only care to know which zones of the territory are nuts, meaning that 2 different gov groups can try to enforce their laws on me and that’s what i need to have mapped. If you need to add names to it, so be it. If you need to add multiple names, it’s fine as well.
If you can’t come to agreement, then I dont’ know. Find someone who will do it for you if you can’t figure it on your own? ;]
EDIT: i like all the downvotes, but not by @bobo10 @Balli_Abokor 
maybe you guys found out a solution? ;D
This reminds me about Gulf of Mexico mess. One guy became president and decided to change a bunch of names… but half of his citizens disagree and the other half might now even want the gulf to be of America even on the teritory of Mexico ;d And there is everyone else from other countries who might have official/unofficial say there as well ;d
Donald Trump wants to recognise Somaliland. That doesn’t bode well for the future of Khatumo.
The international recognition or otherwise of Somaliland is pretty irrelevant here - Somaliland has “some of the trappings of a state” (arguably more than some countries in OSM) but almost no international recogition. If Somaliland were to gain significant international recognition, its status in OSM might need to be reconsidered, but based on the last 30 years that’s a very big “if”. The US already has rather more contact with Somaliland than some other states. Finally history suggests that just because the current US president says something that it actually implies that anything will actually happen (or if it does, that the reverse will not then happen in a couple of days).
@bobo10 @Balli_Abokor Would it be possible for both of you to try and directly address the claims that each of you has made?
@bobo10 in particular could you comment on the statements “it has only been recognized as an interim administration for two years awaiting its recognition as a full federal state” and “There are no hard borders on the ground at the moment”
Note that, for the avoidance of doubt, OSM still shows Somalia as this area and Somaliland as this one. Those are unlikely to change and is in line with how OSM shows other similar conflicts. The Somalia relation is divided into seven subareas, one of which is Somaliland. If a new “Khatumo” state was created than that would be a separate entity to the current admin_level=3 disputed area of Somaliland, but it would be technically possible to do that. How many separate entities would be required is a matter for discussion.
I want to correct a few thing Andy @SomeoneElse, SSC-Khatumo yes was granted interim administration status 2 years ago. It was finally lifted when the Prime Minister of Somalia finally visited the northern region after 2 decades which was significant. SSC-Khatumo is finally a full fledged federal state !
President of SSC with Prime minister of Somalia during his official visit to the capital Las Canod
So I’m pretty shocked despite SSC controlling its own lands, having its own president, its own police, its own military, its own intelligence agency, its own judicial system, its own parliament. OSM continues to lump SSC with somaliland.
Recognition of any state within U.S is just a hoax with no basis, there is not one credible source from a senior official from the trump administration. It’s a lot of “he said, she said, I heard”. One thing I want to point out, no countries would want to Balkanize an already destabilized Somalia who is currently at war with terrorists (Al shabab).
The U.S and other countries know if they recognize any state within Somalia (somaliland) it will ignite the largest clan warfare in the history of Somalia. This is particularly the reason why somaliland has been in limbo for 30 plus years. These are clans and tribal politics you are dealing with.
I don’t know if you remember Andy @SomeoneElse last year Ethiopia claimed it would recognize somaliland in exchange for a port and naval base. Not only did this cause mayhem in Somalia but it also created numerous skirmishes between SSC-Khatumo and Somaliland. Many international partners of Somalia such as the U.S, UK, Turkey, African Union condemned the MOU which now Ethiopia has since backtracked and withdrew after Somalia cut ties with Ethiopia.
Somaliland being recognized is literally impossible there is absolutely zero chances of that happening I’m sure you know this.
I found: " The Associated Press reported in mid-March, citing a US official, that the US was in talks with Somaliland to determine what it could offer in exchange for its recognition."
I don’t read AP myself. FWIW.
The reason why I mentioned Trump’s (purported) desire is because it may say something about the sustainability of SSC-Khatumo.
Several recent wars did exactly that, in their respective regions.
That is precisely why the U.S, UK, EU, and other countries won’t recognize somaIiIand. There was literally a battle just days ago.
Somalia is a tribal country, granting one clan which is the isaaq clan that makes up somaIiIand, superiority over the minority clans would cause a major clan warfare. Hence the reason why somaIiIand has been in limbo for 30 years.
Recognition “rumours”:
As I stated earlier somaIiIand has zero chances of being recognized because of the African Union which Somalia is a member of. The African Union Charter explicitly rejects secession. The AU’s Constitutive Act emphasizes the sovereignty and territorial integrity of its member states.
South Sudan gained international recognition because its mother state, Sudan, agreed to let it go through a formal referendum, a not peaceful and legal divorce.
As for Western Sahara, it was a unique case, it joined the Organization of African Unity (OAU) before the African Union was formed. The majority of OAU member states voted to recognize it despite Morocco rejection. To emphasize Western Sahara was granted statehood after majority member states of the OAU voted yes to recognition.
No country in the world nor any member states of the African Union recognizes somaIiIand
No African state gets recognition without the African Union
I voted that down because there are a number of statements in that post that are either irrelevant to OSM** or simply not true.
** and in particular have no bearing on the admin entity addition that you would like to see.
Respectfully, you can’t go around making statements like:
… and then turn around and say:
“Literally a battle just days ago” is the very definition of “disputed territory”.
Im not talking about SSC-Khatumo, im speaking about inter clan conflict as somaliland is notorious for subjugating minority clans.
If you would have read my full message the point I was trying to make is Somalia is a tribal country with many clans. Recognizing one clan will throw off the balance of power triggering major clan warfare the country hasn’t seen since its collapse in 1990!
These diatribes about the international recognition of Somaliland “triggering major clan warfare the country hasn’t seen since its collapse in 1990!” are not helping to make any salient points about SSC-Khaatumo. It’s entirely irrelevant, as was pointed out to you earlier. It’s not convincing anyone to help you here; if anything it’s dissuading them from helping you, as it’s undermining your credibility.
Balli_Abokor wrote earlier that the “borders have not been demarcated and are very fuzzy as control fluctuates due to clashes with Somaliland forces. There are no hard borders on the ground at the moment.” That’s why he deleted the previously mapped area in the first place, and it is the crux of the matter for us as OSM mappers: you want SSC-Khaatumo mapped, but none of us know where to map it. Or rather, none of us know exactly what its extents are, and you haven’t helped define where those boundaries are whatsoever.
Propaganda photos of officials in a room with some flags isn’t helping, nor do screenshots of news stories from media sources none of us have heard of. If you want the boundaries of SSC-Khaatumo to be added to the map you need to explain to us where the boundaries of SSC-Khaatumo are.
Dismissing Somali media because you haven’t heard of them isn’t ‘critical thinking’ it’s just lazy ignorance. I assume you believe if news comes from CNN, FOX, or MSNBC it’s credible ?
Your words are less about mapping and more about maintaining your preferred narrative. If a functioning STATE with a seal, flag, president, parliament, judiciary, police, and military isn’t real to you, then neither is Somaliland
I presented a map from the EU Institute for Security Studies, an official source with a verified grey tick, clearly marking SSC-Khaatumo. Yet you chose to ignore it and lie with a straight face, claiming I haven’t provided anything with a clear defined border.
OSM’s own policy is to map the reality on the ground. not my feelings, your fantasies, or political preferences. The reality is, SSC controls territory, governs it, and flies the its own flag. You either follow OSM standard or you don’t.
“CNN, FOX or MSNBC”
Sorry to break it to ya, but most OSM contributors aren’t American (in fact the project started out in the UK)
A-Political, doubt OSM will let it happen to be put before the cart, meaning it will be mapped when there is a substantial international body recognizing the ‘state/country’. More, doubt greatly OSM is allowing itself to be used as some vehicle to convince others of the recognition of this ‘state/country’ as in: See, OSM shows it on the map and that being placed around as fitting one or the others (hidden) agenda.
EOM.
